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Re: The Jurisprudence of the Qa'im! A great GREAT test!!

PostPosted:Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:24 pm
by Norhan El Kirsh
SlaveOfAllah wrote:Zayd Ibn Thabit (The Prophet's closest revelation writer) visited the Khalifa Mu'aawiyah (more than 30 years after the Prophet's death), and told him a story about the Prophet. Mu'aawiyah liked the story and ordered someone to write it down. But Zayd said. " the messenger of God ordered us never to write anything of his hadith".

(3) The famous book, "Ulum Al-Hadith" by Ibn Al-Salah, reports a hadith by Abu Hurayra in which Abu Hurayra said the Messenger of God came out to us while we were writing his hadiths and said; "What are you writing?" We said, "hadiths that we hear from you, messenger of God." He said, "A book other than the book of God?" We said, "Should we talk about you?" He said, Talk about me, that would be fine, but those who will lie will go to Hell. Abu Hurayra said, we collected what we wrote of hadiths and burned them in fire.

(4) In the famous book, "Taq-yeed Al-Ilm", Abu Hurayra said, the Messenger of God was informed that some people are writing his hadiths. He took to the pulpit of the mosque and said, "What are these books that I heard you wrote? I am just a human being. Anyone who has any of these writings should bring it here. Abu Hurayra said we collected all these and burned them in fire.

(6) Again, in the book "Taq-yeed Al-Ilm", Abu Saeed Al-Khudry said, " I asked the Messenger of God a permission to write his hadiths, but he refused to give me a permission."


Can anyone answer this???


Please refer to what I replied to you earlier
Point F) You said:
why is everyone running away from this hadith?
"Do not write anything from me except Quran. Anyone who wrote anything other than the Quran shall erase it." [Ahmed, Vol. 1, Page 171, and Sahih Moslim, Zuhd, Book 42, Number 7147]

A sister sent me the following the link http://discover-the-truth.com/2013/05/2 ... hs-part-1/ a while ago. It is an article by a non-shia muslim and he/she refutes the argument about this hadith well. Check it out inshaAllah. And just a quick note, this hadith if it means absolutely do not follow anything written except for the Qur'an then it would contradict the Qur'an because Allah swt commands us in the Qur'an to follow the commands of the Prophet sawas, how else would we do so if it was not from his Hadiths? So I believe if this Hadith you mentioned is true then it must have been - like the article in that link proves- in the beginning of the call before Qur'an was completed, and that after Qur'an was not "new" anymore and Islam has been for a whil then He sawas allowed them to write his Hadiths afterwards (check the article please for the exact proofs)

Re: The Jurisprudence of the Qa'im! A great GREAT test!!

PostPosted:Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:26 pm
by SlaveOfAllah
Norhan El Kirsh wrote:Salam SlaveofAllah,

SlaveOfAllah wrote:Zayd Ibn Thabit (The Prophet's closest revelation writer) visited the Khalifa Mu'aawiyah (more than 30 years after the Prophet's death), and told him a story about the Prophet. Mu'aawiyah liked the story and ordered someone to write it down. But Zayd said. " the messenger of God ordered us never to write anything of his hadith".


Response: Zaid ibn thabit never met Muawiyah. Reasons are as follows:

Prophet Muhammed (sawas) died in the year 633. Zaid Ibn Thabit died in the year 660. Muawiya came in power and became the leader in the year 661. According to hadith rejecters this incident you quoted above took place in the year 663.

Question: How could Zaid have met Muawiya in the year 663 when Zaid died in the year 660?.

If this is not sufficient enough for a reply to you or if you doubt the dates mentioned above (even though they ate confirmed by the very people who call themselves "Quranists" i.e hadith rejectors), then please do know that Muawiya did get Hadith written down. Here are two traditions from the most authentic Sunni book Sahih Bukhari

Narrated by Warrad (The clerk of Al-Mughira) Muawiya wrote to Al-Mughira: “Write to me what you have heard from Allah’s Apostle.” So he (Al-Mughira) wrote to him: Allah’s Prophet used to say at the end of each prayer: “La ilaha illalla-h wahdahu la sharika lahu, lahul Mulku, wa lahul Hamdu wa hula ala kulli shai’in qadir. ‘Allahumma la mani’ a lima a’taita, wala mu’tiya lima mana’ta, wala yanfa’u dhuljadd minkal-jadd.” He also wrote to him that the Prophet used to forbid:
(1) Qil and Qal (idle useless talk or that you talk too much about others),
(2) Asking too many questions (in disputed religious matters);
(3) And wasting one’s wealth by extravagance;
(4) and to be undutiful to one’smother
(5) and to bury the daughters alive
(6) and to prevent your favors (benevolence) to others (i.e. not to pay the rights of others)
(7) And asking others for something (except when it is unavoidable).
(Source: Sahih Bukhari Hadith Volume 9. Number: 395)


And

Narrated by Warrad Muawiya wrote to Mughira, “Write to me what you heard the Prophet saying after his prayer.” So Al-Mughira dictated to me and said, “I heard the Prophet saying after the prayer, ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah Alone Who has no partner. O Allah! No one can withhold what you give, and none can give what you withhold, and the fortune of a man of means is useless before you (i.e., only good deeds are of value). “(Source: Sahih Bukhari Hadith Volume 8. Number: 612)


This is my WHOLE point, why cant you see it? one hadith says one thing another says the total opposite, which one is true? we have no way of knowing.

004.082 Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than God, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy.

RasulAllah clearly told many companions to not write anything form him except Quran, you cant deny that, there are multiple instances. So why if you believe hadiths do you willfully go against them? you are just picking and choosing again which ones suit your particular belief system. the sunnis will all believe other ones to suit theirs...

Re: The Jurisprudence of the Qa'im! A great GREAT test!!

PostPosted:Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:30 pm
by Norhan El Kirsh
SlaveOfAllah wrote:Zayd Ibn Thabit (The Prophet's closest revelation writer) visited the Khalifa Mu'aawiyah (more than 30 years after the Prophet's death), and told him a story about the Prophet. Mu'aawiyah liked the story and ordered someone to write it down. But Zayd said. " the messenger of God ordered us never to write anything of his hadith".

(3) The famous book, "Ulum Al-Hadith" by Ibn Al-Salah, reports a hadith by Abu Hurayra in which Abu Hurayra said the Messenger of God came out to us while we were writing his hadiths and said; "What are you writing?" We said, "hadiths that we hear from you, messenger of God." He said, "A book other than the book of God?" We said, "Should we talk about you?" He said, Talk about me, that would be fine, but those who will lie will go to Hell. Abu Hurayra said, we collected what we wrote of hadiths and burned them in fire.

(4) In the famous book, "Taq-yeed Al-Ilm", Abu Hurayra said, the Messenger of God was informed that some people are writing his hadiths. He took to the pulpit of the mosque and said, "What are these books that I heard you wrote? I am just a human being. Anyone who has any of these writings should bring it here. Abu Hurayra said we collected all these and burned them in fire.

(6) Again, in the book "Taq-yeed Al-Ilm", Abu Saeed Al-Khudry said, " I asked the Messenger of God a permission to write his hadiths, but he refused to give me a permission."


Can anyone answer this???


Please refer to what I replied to you earlier
Point F) You said:
why is everyone running away from this hadith?
"Do not write anything from me except Quran. Anyone who wrote anything other than the Quran shall erase it." [Ahmed, Vol. 1, Page 171, and Sahih Moslim, Zuhd, Book 42, Number 7147]

A sister sent me the following the link http://discover-the-truth.com/2013/05/2 ... hs-part-1/ a while ago. It is an article by a non-shia muslim and he/she refutes the argument about this hadith well. Check it out inshaAllah. And just a quick note, this hadith if it means absolutely do not follow anything written except for the Qur'an then it would contradict the Qur'an because Allah swt commands us in the Qur'an to follow the commands of the Prophet sawas, how else would we do so if it was not from his Hadiths? So I believe if this Hadith you mentioned is true then it must have been - like the article in that link proves- in the beginning of the call before Qur'an was completed, and that after Qur'an was not "new" anymore and Islam has been for a whil then He sawas allowed them to write his Hadiths afterwards (check the article please for the exact proofs)


Brother,
Do you believe Prophet Muhammad sawas left a will before he died or not?

Re: The Jurisprudence of the Qa'im! A great GREAT test!!

PostPosted:Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:30 pm
by SlaveOfAllah
Norhan El Kirsh wrote:
SlaveOfAllah wrote:Zayd Ibn Thabit (The Prophet's closest revelation writer) visited the Khalifa Mu'aawiyah (more than 30 years after the Prophet's death), and told him a story about the Prophet. Mu'aawiyah liked the story and ordered someone to write it down. But Zayd said. " the messenger of God ordered us never to write anything of his hadith".

(3) The famous book, "Ulum Al-Hadith" by Ibn Al-Salah, reports a hadith by Abu Hurayra in which Abu Hurayra said the Messenger of God came out to us while we were writing his hadiths and said; "What are you writing?" We said, "hadiths that we hear from you, messenger of God." He said, "A book other than the book of God?" We said, "Should we talk about you?" He said, Talk about me, that would be fine, but those who will lie will go to Hell. Abu Hurayra said, we collected what we wrote of hadiths and burned them in fire.

(4) In the famous book, "Taq-yeed Al-Ilm", Abu Hurayra said, the Messenger of God was informed that some people are writing his hadiths. He took to the pulpit of the mosque and said, "What are these books that I heard you wrote? I am just a human being. Anyone who has any of these writings should bring it here. Abu Hurayra said we collected all these and burned them in fire.

(6) Again, in the book "Taq-yeed Al-Ilm", Abu Saeed Al-Khudry said, " I asked the Messenger of God a permission to write his hadiths, but he refused to give me a permission."


Can anyone answer this???


Please refer to what I replied to you earlier
Point F) You said:
why is everyone running away from this hadith?
"Do not write anything from me except Quran. Anyone who wrote anything other than the Quran shall erase it." [Ahmed, Vol. 1, Page 171, and Sahih Moslim, Zuhd, Book 42, Number 7147]

A sister sent me the following the link http://discover-the-truth.com/2013/05/2 ... hs-part-1/ a while ago. It is an article by a non-shia muslim and he/she refutes the argument about this hadith well. Check it out inshaAllah. And just a quick note, this hadith if it means absolutely do not follow anything written except for the Qur'an then it would contradict the Qur'an because Allah swt commands us in the Qur'an to follow the commands of the Prophet sawas, how else would we do so if it was not from his Hadiths? So I believe if this Hadith you mentioned is true then it must have been - like the article in that link proves- in the beginning of the call before Qur'an was completed, and that after Qur'an was not "new" anymore and Islam has been for a whil then He sawas allowed them to write his Hadiths afterwards (check the article please for the exact proofs)


They want to believe hadiths just as much as you do, so of course they want to try to disprove it. the simple truth is they are there for all to see. multiple instances of rasulAllah commanding not to write hadith!

if you want to go against him that's your choice.

Re: The Jurisprudence of the Qa'im! A great GREAT test!!

PostPosted:Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:32 pm
by Norhan El Kirsh
Brother,
Do you believe Prophet Muhammad sawas left a will before he died or not?

Re: The Jurisprudence of the Qa'im! A great GREAT test!!

PostPosted:Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:47 pm
by SlaveOfAllah
Norhan El Kirsh wrote:
SlaveOfAllah wrote:Zayd Ibn Thabit (The Prophet's closest revelation writer) visited the Khalifa Mu'aawiyah (more than 30 years after the Prophet's death), and told him a story about the Prophet. Mu'aawiyah liked the story and ordered someone to write it down. But Zayd said. " the messenger of God ordered us never to write anything of his hadith".

(3) The famous book, "Ulum Al-Hadith" by Ibn Al-Salah, reports a hadith by Abu Hurayra in which Abu Hurayra said the Messenger of God came out to us while we were writing his hadiths and said; "What are you writing?" We said, "hadiths that we hear from you, messenger of God." He said, "A book other than the book of God?" We said, "Should we talk about you?" He said, Talk about me, that would be fine, but those who will lie will go to Hell. Abu Hurayra said, we collected what we wrote of hadiths and burned them in fire.

(4) In the famous book, "Taq-yeed Al-Ilm", Abu Hurayra said, the Messenger of God was informed that some people are writing his hadiths. He took to the pulpit of the mosque and said, "What are these books that I heard you wrote? I am just a human being. Anyone who has any of these writings should bring it here. Abu Hurayra said we collected all these and burned them in fire.

(6) Again, in the book "Taq-yeed Al-Ilm", Abu Saeed Al-Khudry said, " I asked the Messenger of God a permission to write his hadiths, but he refused to give me a permission."


Can anyone answer this???


Please refer to what I replied to you earlier
Point F) You said:
why is everyone running away from this hadith?
"Do not write anything from me except Quran. Anyone who wrote anything other than the Quran shall erase it." [Ahmed, Vol. 1, Page 171, and Sahih Moslim, Zuhd, Book 42, Number 7147]

A sister sent me the following the link http://discover-the-truth.com/2013/05/2 ... hs-part-1/ a while ago. It is an article by a non-shia muslim and he/she refutes the argument about this hadith well. Check it out inshaAllah. And just a quick note, this hadith if it means absolutely do not follow anything written except for the Qur'an then it would contradict the Qur'an because Allah swt commands us in the Qur'an to follow the commands of the Prophet sawas, how else would we do so if it was not from his Hadiths? So I believe if this Hadith you mentioned is true then it must have been - like the article in that link proves- in the beginning of the call before Qur'an was completed, and that after Qur'an was not "new" anymore and Islam has been for a whil then He sawas allowed them to write his Hadiths afterwards (check the article please for the exact proofs)


Brother,
Do you believe Prophet Muhammad sawes left a will before he died or not?


Sis the only thing i can know for sure is what is in the Quran. Anything else can be wrong. Did he saws leave a will most definitely i think, do i believe Ali should of been khalifa most definitely, since the very beginning that i converted i always had a deep and i mean deep love for the prophet and his family, especially Ali (and i never really knew why i felt this way but i did {and i converted through sunni muslims by the way}) but all this doesn't change the fact of what im talking here, whatever we have now could of been corrupted, so its impossible for us to know the truth. And what happened back then has nothing to do with us now.

if i knew for certain the words of the hadith were truly the words of the ahulbayt i would believe in them without question, its not their words i don't believe, i just know shaytan will have corrupted them

007.016 He said: "Because thou hast thrown me out of the way, lo! I will lie in wait for them on thy straight way:
007.017 "Then will I assault them from before them and behind them, from their right and their left: Nor wilt thou find, in most of them, gratitude (for thy mercies)."


prove to me to the point where there can be NO doubt that the hadith in the books of the ahulbayt have never been corrupted?

would you swear your life and your children's lives and your chance of paradise and your children's chance of paradise and you and your children will burn in hell forever if you are wrong...that all the hadiths of the ahulbayt have never been touched/changed/corrupted? please answer me this 'truly'.

salam

Re: The Jurisprudence of the Qa'im! A great GREAT test!!

PostPosted:Thu Feb 05, 2015 5:15 pm
by SlaveOfAllah
Abdullah Hashem wrote:[center]قال علي (عليه السلام) إن حديثنا تشمئز منه القلوب فمن عرف فزيدوهم ومن أنكر فذروهم[/center]
[center]Imam Ali a.s. said: "Verily the hearts become disgusted by our hadiths, so whoever knows then increase them and whoever denies then leave them"[/center]


Abdullah please can you (for Allah) tell me the book and page number where i can find that hadith please?

jazakAllah

Re: The Jurisprudence of the Qa'im! A great GREAT test!!

PostPosted:Thu Feb 05, 2015 5:32 pm
by Norhan El Kirsh
Salam SlaveofAllah

You said:
My response: Again im sorry you are wrong, the Qur'an tells us the clear verses are clear and easy for anyone to understand, then there are some verses ONLY ALLAH HIMSELF knows the real meaning


That's completely wrong. What Allah swt says is: {It is He Who has revealed unto you the Book wherein are explicit verses—they are the Mother of the Book—and others [which are] allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue that which is allegorical seeking [to cause] dissension and seeking its interpretation. None knows its interpretation except for Allah and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge, they say, We believe therein; All is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really remember} [Holy Qur'an 3:7]

As for who those people of knowledge are, I already made my point about this earlier:

So who are those people of knowledge whom only them and Allah swt know the interpretation of the allegorical verses? Are they Sheikhs for example? Muslim scholars? Aren't those fallible people? Aren't they subjected to making mistakes regarding the interpretation of the Qur'an? Don't you see how there are million and one interpretations, contradicting each other, of the same verses given by those? Don't you see the crazy ridiculous Fatwas those "people of knowledge" give? Don't you see that because many people believe like you that the people of knowledge in those verses are scholars and sheikhs, so they referred to them the allegorical verses of Qur'an and then they interpreted for them by their sick fallible minds which caused bloodshed and misguidance everywhere? Would Allah really command us to refer to those regarding the interpretation of His holy words?

Allah swt commands us in the Qur'an to obey three: Himself, His prophet, and those in authority among us. He swt says: {O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you} . So do you think, "the ones in authority among us" are the rulers or the Sheikhs or the scholars like some Muslims think now? Would Allah swt attach to Himself fallible rulers or fallible scholars? Would He swt make obedience to Him the same as obedience to fallible human beings? What if the one in authority among us does something wrong or commits a sin or gives a wrong Fatwa like the crazy Fatwas we hear nowadays, and then I obey him, what would I tell God on the Day of Judgment? Would I say, "But God, You commanded me to follow whoever is in authority among us!" Would God swt excuse me or forgive me? Of course not. They all contradict each other, which one do I choose?

Therefore brother, just by pure logic, Allah swt commands us in Qur'an to obey those in authority among us, and he attached them to Himself swt and to His messenger sawas, in one sentence. Yet we know that Allah swt wouldn't command us to obey fallible human beings nor would He make obedience to fallible humans the same as obedience to Him and His Messenger. But on the other hand, Muhammad sawas attached his Ahlul Bayt a.s to the Qur'an, and he commanded us to follow them both. You do the math.

Re: Is the Mahdi true? Are Hadiths true?

PostPosted:Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:05 pm
by SlaveOfAllah
Abdullah Hashem wrote:You keep saying swear by your children and life and etc. about the hadiths. You are basically asking for a mubahila. The only thing I will do is accept a mubahila about the truthfulness of the Yamani a.s. and that he is the proof of Allah and everything he says is truth. And the Yamani a.s. surely believes in hadiths. If you want to do a mubahila on the truthfulness of the Yamani a.s. then we can do that and let the curse of Allah be upon the liars. And I am not the one asking for a mubahila, you did.


You see you cant and thank you for being big enough to admit it Alhamdulillah praise belongs only to Allah.

This debate has never been about Ahmad Al Hassan, i would never in a million years accept a mubahila against him. You are taking this very personally, and being very defensive, but it shows your love for rasulAllah and his family so i like that. But can you show me one place i have said one word against him? you have no idea who i am or what is in my heart, my brother i say this in the most humble way i can, i was sitting in mecca waiting for the Mahdi before you even cared about him, way before you were chasing fake prophets! the hadiths you are finding now i learned 12 years ago praise be to Allah, ask the imam if what im saying is true, please ask him! why do you think i have been following you so closely since the beginning?

My debate here is regarding the corruption of hadiths, you cant accept a mubahila for them because you dont know which are true and which aren't. That should end that debate for any people reading this.

However this has no bearing whatsoever on the authenticity of Imam Ahmad. Of course he would know exactly which hadiths have been corrupted and which haven't, but before he came for the millions and millions of people, they have no way of knowing which are corrupt so my original argument stands.

Salam bro

Re: Is the Mahdi true? Are Hadiths true?

PostPosted:Thu Feb 05, 2015 11:21 pm
by Norhan El Kirsh
Slam SlaveofAllah

* First off something needs to be clarified. Neither Abdullah nor I would want you to do this Mubahala because brother all the ones before you who did it were destroyed. And this in its own is a sign. Abdullah explained later on that the Mubahala you suggested should be with Imam Ahmed Alhasan a.s. and not him, and yes you are the one who presented this Mubahala thing because you are the one who repeatedly asked us to swear upon our children and chance of paradise. Specifically you said:
would you swear your life and your children's lives and your chance of paradise and your children's chance of paradise and you and your children will burn in hell forever if you are wrong...that all the hadiths of the ahulbayt have never been touched/changed/corrupted? please answer me this 'truly'.
We hope you ask Allah swt about the Truth of Imam Ahmed Alhasan a.s. like I asked you before, inshaAllah this is what will end all arguments.

* Secondly: Brother, no one of us ever claimed in this thread ever that all hadiths are true. Rather, I have said in the previous posts over and over that The Prophet sawas and his Ahlul Bayt a.s gave us a way by which we may know whether the hadith is true or not, if the hadith opposes or contradicts the Qur'an then it's wrong, if it goes with the Qur'an then it is true. So no one ever claimed that all the hadiths are true. You are the one who said that we did claim that and you asked us to swear on our children and chance to paradise etc that all the Ahlul Bayt's hadiths are true, when in fact we never claimed that. And yes there were hadiths narrated from Ahlul Bayt a.s that were corrupted and Imam Ahmed a.s refuted them, like the following:

Someone asked the Imam a.s:
"What [kind of] woman's consultation/opinion/advice that a man should go against? Because when there is a discussion taking place between men, and then a woman speaks and gives her opinion, the men would say: (Consult them/ask for their opinion, then go against it) ([this is referring to a Hadith mentioned on the authority of Ahlul Bayt a.s]), and that would create confusion in the heart [of the woman] and [it would] break it, because men would argue with us by [saying that it is a Hadith from] Ahlul Bayt (a.s)!"

So the Imam a.s answered her and said:
(It is foolish to tell [someone] to ask for the opinion/consultation/advice of a person so that they go against it!, rather, that would be lack of manners/impoliteness! Not everything that has been narrated on the authority of Ahlul Bayt (a,s) is correct, because there are people who have done a mistake in copying what they (a.s) said, and there are others who intentionally lied about them ([meaning said that they (a.s) said something that they never said]) in order to distort their image. So whatever you find to be going against the Qur'an or the manners of Qu'ran then it is certainly not produced from Ahlul Bayt (a.s), rather that would be either an error in copying [their a.s. words], or distortion [of their a.s. words], or lying about them a.s.)

Do you see the underlined sentence? That's what I have been saying to you. This is the scale that Ahlul Bayt a.s. clarified. Compare the hadith to the Qur'an, if it goes against Qur'an then the hadith is fake or distorted, if it doesn't then it is true".

* You said to Abdullah:
This debate has never been about Ahmad Al Hassan
and
But can you show me one place i have said one word against him? you have no idea who i am or what is in my heart,

Brother, the fact that you are denying the Mahdi makes this debate totally against Ahmed Alhasan a.s, because Ahmed Alhasan a.s. claims to be the Mahdi who is born in the End Times.

* You said:
Of course he would know exactly which hadiths have been corrupted and which haven't

How do you say that if you don't even believe in him? I don't understand what is your stance regarding him? If you deny the Mahdi, then you are denying Ahmed Alhasan.

* You said:
but before he came for the millions and millions of people, they have no way of knowing which are corrupt so my original argument stands.

No there is a way, and that's the scale by which Ahlul Bayt a.s clarified for them. The one mentioned above. Had they followed Ahlul Bayt a.s. sincerely they would have known which are corrupt and which are not.

More replies to your previous questions coming in a bit inshaAllah.