Here is a section for debates. Here you can discuss and debate topics within Islam and between Islam and other religions.
#61997
Assalamu alaykum SlaveofAllah,

I apologize for the long posts. I really try my best to be as brief as possible but you do mention a lot of points in your one post and I would like to reply to all of them, for you and for anyone else who is seeking the truth and watching this thread. So here's the deal, if you don't want to read everything I wrote to you then no problem let's end the argument at this post, but please do check out the last paragraph in green which is at the very end of this post. Thanks in advance.

[center]***[/center]

In the Name of Allah The Abundantly Merciful The Intensely Merciful. O Allah send Your prayers upon Muhammad and his family the Imams and the Mahdis.

A) You said:
You are the one following mens commandments, i'm the one following Gods commandments, so who is this ayat referring to??? "And he to whom Allah has not granted light - for him there is no light.(Sura An-'Nur 40) ??? you post it for me yet its actually regarding yourself subhanAllah!


No brother, we are following the Qur'an. I already answered you on that in points 3 and 4 which I mentioned in my previous post. Here they are again:

Point 3: You said:
no where in the Quran does Allah command us to follow the prophets family or anyone else after they are dead (peace be upon them)

And you said :
Again the hadiths have brought misguidance, corruption, death and bloodshed, so they cannot be trusted.


Yet when I asked you to tell me who the underlined ones in these verses are:
{It is He Who has revealed unto you the Book wherein are explicit verses—they are the Mother of the Book—and others [which are] allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue that which is allegorical seeking [to cause] dissension and seeking its interpretation. None knows its interpretation except for Allah and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge, they say, We believe therein; All is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really remember} [Holy Qur'an 3:7]
{Rather the Qur'an is clear verses in the hearts of those who were given knowledge. And none reject Our verses except the wrongdoers.} [Holy Quran 29:49]
{...But if they had referred it back to the Messenger or to those of authority among them, then the ones who [can] draw correct conclusions from it would have known it...} [Holy Qur'an 4:83].

You said that they are the people of knowledge.

By Allah, don't you think that those people of knowledge would also bring misguidance and corruption and bloodshed? What do you mean the people of knowledge? You mean Sheikhs for example? Muslim scholars? Aren't those fallible people? Aren't they subjected to making mistakes regarding the interpretation of the Qur'an? Don't you see how there are million and one interpretations, contradicting each other, of the same verses given by those "people of knowledge"? Don't you see the crazy ridiculous Fatwas those "people of knowledge" give? Don't you see that because many people believe like you that the people of knowledge in those verses are scholars and sheikhs, so they referred to them the allegorical verses of Qur'an and then they interpreted for them by their sick fallible minds which caused bloodshed and misguidance everywhere? Would Allah really command us to refer to those regarding the interpretation of His holy words?

Allah swt commands us in the Qur'an to obey three: Himself, His prophet, and those in authority among us. He swt says: {O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you} . So do you think, "the ones in authority among us" are the rulers or the Sheikhs or the scholars like some Muslims think now? Would Allah swt attach to Himself fallible rulers or fallible scholars? Would He swt make obedience to Him the same as obedience to fallible human beings? What if the one in authority among us does something wrong or commits a sin or gives a wrong Fatwa like the crazy Fatwas we hear nowadays, and then I obey him, what would I tell God on the Day of Judgment? Would I say, "But God, You commanded me to follow whoever is in authority among us!" Would God swt excuse me or forgive me? Of course not. They all contradict each other, which one do I choose?

Therefore brother, just by pure logic, Allah swt commands us in Qur'an to obey those in authority among us, and he attached them to Himself swt and to His messenger sawas, in one sentence. Yet we know that Allah swt wouldn't command us to obey fallible human beings nor would He make obedience to fallible humans the same as obedience to Him and His Messenger. But on the other hand, Muhammad sawas attached his Ahlul Bayt a.s to the Qur'an, and he commanded us to follow them both. You do the math.

Point 4: You said:
007.185 Do they see nothing in the government of the heavens and the earth and all that God hath created? (Do they not see) that it may well be that their terms is nigh drawing to an end? In what HADITH after this (Qur'an) will they then believe?
is the above ayat not clearly warning away from following any other hadith than the Qur'an? i guess it is, so we need to be very careful here.


First off, Arabic is my mother tongue. In Arabic, the word "Hadith" means speech, or words, or statements. Having clarified that, we do not do anything other than what the Qur'an tells us to, and for sure we do not believe in anything other than the speech of Qur'an. And that's why brother we listen to Qur'an when it tells us to obey the prophet sawas {O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you} How do we obey the messenger sawas as the Qur'an commands us? Isn't it from the Hadiths of the Prophet? How else would you know the Prophet's commands? That's why we obey the Prophet's hadiths, because Qur'an commanded us to, and in those hadiths the prophet sawas commands us to hold tight to the Qur'an and his Ahlul bayt a.s and he tells us that they are the ones who are firmly grounded in knowledge and the ones who are in authority among us. So we must follow them, because we only follow what the Qur'an commands us to.


B) You said:
006.112 Likewise did We make for every Messenger an enemy,- evil ones among men and jinns, inspiring each other with flowery discourses by way of deception. If thy Lord had so planned, they would not have done it: so leave them and their inventions alone.
Does this following Ayat mean anything to you? 006.115 The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfilment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all.


I didn't get what you really wanted to say there, but if what you meant was that we change Allah's words, or that the Imams a.s. change Allah's words, then you are completely wrong. What we follow is the Imams' a.s. interpretation of the Qur'an. Their interpretation is not "change in words". It is just an interpretation of Allah's words. And matter of fact we must follow those interpretations and not follow our own understanding. Why? Because Allah swt commands us to. Where? Allah swt says that no one knows the interpretation of the Allegorical verses of Qur'an except for Allah and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge: {It is He Who has revealed unto you the Book wherein are explicit verses—they are the Mother of the Book—and others [which are] allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue that which is allegorical seeking [to cause] dissension and seeking its interpretation. None knows its interpretation except for Allah and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge, they say, We believe therein; All is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really remember} [Holy Qur'an 3:7]
{Rather the Qur'an is clear verses in the hearts of those who were given knowledge. And none reject Our verses except the wrongdoers.} [Holy Quran 29:49]
{...But if they had referred it back to the Messenger or to those of authority among them, then the ones who [can] draw correct conclusions from it would have known it...} [Holy Qur'an 4:83].
So how do we know that the ones underlined above are the Ahlul Bayt a.s. (apart from the million Hadiths that says so), check point A.

C) You said:
if hadiths clearly showed the way to pray, then why do all Muslims pray differently?

Actually I'm the one who wanted to ask you a very similar question: If prayer is mentioned in detail in Qur'an like you claim then why do Muslims pray differently?! Answer: Because 1) It is not mentioned in details (see point D), and 2) because they follow hadiths other than that of Ahlul Bayt's a.s. whom the Prophet sawas asked us to hold tight to them. Yes Qur'an clarifies everything, He swt says {And We have sent down upon you the Book as a clarification for all things} [Surat Al-Nahl 89]., meaning it shows the general law of everything. But does it enumerate (mention in detail) everything? No. And in no where in Qur'an does God say that Qur'an enumerates everything. Pay attention that clarification is different than "enumerating" or detailed mentioning. However, Allah swt mentions that everything is enumerated in a clear Imam {Indeed, it is We who bring the dead to life and record what they have put forth and what they left behind, and all things We have enumerated in a clear Imam} [Surat Yasin 36:12]. In the English translation of Qur'an, they translate the word "Imam" as "book" or "register". But, as I mentioned to you before, Arabic is my mother tongue, and the word Imam only means "Imam" which means leader or guide. Here is the word Imam in Arabic, إمام , go look it up yourself in an Arabic-English dictionary and you will see that it does not mean book or register and it only means guide or leader.

Therefore, the enumeration (detailed mentioning of things) are with the Imams of the Ahlul Bayt a.s, whom Muhammad sawas clearly attached to the Qur'an before his death and commanded us to hold tight to them in order to "never be misguided" (check the hadith of the two weight things). So yes Qur'an mentions prayer in general, hajj in general, but the details of what exactly to do in every bow or in every prostration and how many times to do it etc is only to be known from the Imam of your time.

D) You said:
To answer yours and the sisters Question. The prayer is clearly mentioned in the Qur'an, to bow and prostrate and when to do it. show me another way to bow except for the way we do it? show me another way to prostrate than the way we do it? ill be waiting... the bible says jesus, abraham fell on their faces and prayed! exactly as we do.

Brother, surely bow is bow, and prostrate is prostrate, and stand is stand! No problem with that. What we mean is how do you know how many bows or prostrations to do? What exactly to say in each step? How many times to recite Al-Fatiha or the other Surahs? How do you know how many times to praise God in prostration? ETC! Throughout the Quran God didn't set any frequencies in connection to the worship practices. We do not find in the Quran any set number of times we must wash our hands in ablution or the number of times we must walk the distance between Safa and Marwah during Hajj (another pillar of Islam). The amount of times one circumambulates around the Kaaba; though the Qur’an asks us to go around the Kaaba it doesn’t actually tell us how many times we should do this, nor does it tell us details of the prayer like mentioned earlier, etc! Where do all the details we do in our prayer and hajj etc come from? They certainly don't come from the Quran! They come from Hadiths. The details of Adhan (the call for prayer) is not indicated in Qur’an, so we simply go to the Hadiths of our Prophet and his Ahlul Bayt to know how to call for prayer, and to know how to pray IN DETAIL, etc.

Which brings us to the next point you made:

E) You said:
And to prove my point BEYOND ANY DOUBT Even all of you now, Ahmad al hassan has had to correct your prayer, its totally different, so tell me how have hadiths helped you? if they were any good he wouldnt of needed to correct your prayer would he, it would already be ok. Dont you see the terrible logic in your arguments?


Imam Ahmed Alhasan a.s came with the prayer of his forefathers a.s, the true prayer. The new thing was the part of the Adhan (the call to prayer) where we testify that the Mahdi and the Mahdis from his sons are the Proofs of Allah. And adding to the Adhan is not wrong, for as you might already know, the Adhan the general Muslims have today has a part added to it which was not present during the time of the Prophet sawas, and it has a part which is removed (which was present during the days of the Prophet sawas).

The part they add is : "al-salatu khayrun min al-nawm (prayer is better than sleep)" which they recite twice after "hayya ‘ala al-falah ". This part some Sunnis say was added by Umar ibn Al-Khattab to the prayer, and some say it was added by Abu Bakr. The important thing is that all of Muslims agree that it was "added" and that it wasn't present at the time of the Prophet sawas.

Sources:
Muwatta of Malik, Book 3, Hadeeth Number 3.1.8
Al-Farooq by Allama Shibli No’mani, page 295, published in Karachi.
Muwatta Imam Malik, Dhikr e Adhan.
Izalatul Khifa, volume 3, page 328, Sunan e Adhan.
Kanz al Ummal volume 4, page 270, Dhikr e Adhan.
Seerat al Halabiyah, volume 2, page 303, Dhikr e Adhan.
Nail al-Awtar, volume 2, page 43.
Sunan al-Kubra, page 425, by al-Beyhaqqi.
Tareekh Baghdad, volume 9, page 409.
Mishkat al Masabeeh, Volume 1 page 142

For the sake of brevity, let us quote from Muwatta:
"Yahya related to me from Malik that he had heard that the caller to prayer came to Umar ibn al-Khattab to call him to the morning prayer and found him sleeping, so he said, “Prayer is better than sleep,” and Umar ordered him to put that in the adman for fajr"


And the part they removed was: "“Haya Ala Khair al-Amal (hasten towards the best of actions)”, which we Shia still recite in the Adhan. These words have not been added by us, in fact they were recited by Muhammad (sawas) and the true inheritors of his knowledge the Imams from Ahl’ul bayt (as). Its validity can be established even from Sunni sources. I shall cite the following esteemed Sunni works:

Sharh Maqasid, volume 3 page 52
Sharh Tajreed, page 408

Qaushijee states in Sharh Tajreed:
(Umar said): ‘O people, three things were there during the reign of Allah’s messenger and I forbid them and will punish for practicing them and they are the Mut’ah of women, the Mut’ah of hajj and "Haya alaa khayri al-anal"’

Imam Saaduddin Taftazani states in Sharh Maqasid, Volume 3 page 512:
“It has been narrated that Umar said: ‘Three things existed during the time of Allah’s Messenger, I forbid and make them Haram, these are Mut’ah al-Nisa, Mut’ah al-Hajj and “Hay ala Khayr al-Amal"”.
Sharh Maqasid, Volume 3 page 512

Okay, now surprisingly, Hanafi Fiqh permits citing the names of Khaleefa’s while reciting Adhan. As proof look at the following esteemed Sunni works:

Fatah al-Qadeer Sharh Hidayah, page 215, Dhikr of Adhan.
Al-Kifaya Sharh Hidayah, page 215 by Jalal-ud-din Khuwarzmi.
Sharh Hidayah, page 215
Al-Badaya wal-Nihayah, Volume 9 page 267
Aojaz al-Masalik Sharh Muwatta e Imam Malik, volume 2, page 27.

Al-Kifaya:
“An innovation started by Imam of Ahl’ul Sunnah Abu Yusaf was that the Caller of Prayer (Moazzin) should take the names of Khaleefa’s and the Ameer and pay regards and blessings to him and after that he should say “Haya ala As-Salat” and this innovation was introduced as it was for the Caliphs of the Holy Prophet (s).”

Ibn Katheer while praising Umar Ibn Abdul Aziz writes in his esteemed work Al Bidaya wa al Nihaya:
“Umar ibn e Abdul-Aziz’s caliphate was the revival of Khilafat-e-Rasihida and the era of second life of the Islamic civilization and culture, Quranic orders, Prophetic Sunnah and the Islamic teachings.”

Al-Badayah wa Al-Nahayah, Vol 6, Page 267, By Ibn Katheer
Al-Badayah wa Al-Nahayah, Vol 6, Page 267, By Ibn Katheer
On the very next page we read:
“Uthman al-Rahi al-Hamsi narrates that he had heard the Moazzin of Umar ibn e Abdul Aziz convey Salaams to him in between Adhan by saying Asalam-o-Alaikum ya Ameer-al-Mo’mineen wa rehmatullah-e-wa-barakatuhu, Hai-e-alas-salat, hai-e-alal-falah, as-salat qad-qarbat, i-e “O! Leader of the believers, Allah’s blessings be on you, Hasten towards prayer, Hasten towards Prosperity, the time for prayer has approached.”
Al Bidaya wal Nihaya, Volume 9, Page 267, published by Nafees Academy Karachi

Note: If sending Salam on Umar Ibn Abdul Aziz in Adhan is okay then how can the recitation of "I bear witness that Ali and the Imams from his sons are the proofs of Allah, I bear witness that the Mahdi and the Mahdis of his sons are the proofs of Allah" be wrong?!

What else do you have against the prayer Ahmed Alhasan a.s taught us? Joining the prayers? That's what twelver Shia used to do before his arrival, because that's what Ahlul Bayt a.s mentioned in their Hadiths. Plus it is not obligatory to do so.

Not only that but Also Sunnis have in their books that Muhammad sawas used to join prayers as well. Here’s what Ibn Abbas, one of the most famous narrators, says according to the Musnad of Ibn Hanbal :
"The Prophet (Sawas) prayed in Madina, while residing there, not travelling, seven and eight (this is an indication to the seven Raka’t of Maghrib and Isha combined, and the eight Raka’t of Zuhr and`Asr combined)."
Musnad al-Imam Ibn Hanbal, vol. 1, page 221.

Also, in the Muwatta’ of Malik (Imam of Maliki sect), vol. 1, page 161, Ibn Abbas says:
"The Prophet (S) prayed Zuhr and `Asr in combination and Maghrib and Isha in combination without a reason for fear or travel."

As for Sahih Muslim, see the following under the chapter of "Combination of prayers, when one is resident":
Ibn Abbas reported: The messenger of Allah(may peace be upon him) observed the noon and the afternoon prayers together, and the sunset and Isha prayers together without being in a state of fear or in a state of journey

Sahih Muslim, English version, Chapter 250, Tradition #1515
Ibn Abbas reported that the messenger of Allah(may peace be upon him) combined the noon prayer with the afternoon prayer and the sunset prayer with the Isha prayer in Medina without being in a state of danger or rainfall. And in the hadith transmitted by Waki(the words are): "I said to Ibn Abbas: What prompted him to do that? He said: So that his(prophet’s)Ummah should not be put to (unnecessary) hardship."

Refer to http://www.al-islam.org/shiite-encyclop ... ted-issues for more about this and much more.

Point F) You said:
why is everyone running away from this hadith?
"Do not write anything from me except Quran. Anyone who wrote anything other than the Quran shall erase it." [Ahmed, Vol. 1, Page 171, and Sahih Moslim, Zuhd, Book 42, Number 7147]

A sister sent me the following the link http://discover-the-truth.com/2013/05/2 ... hs-part-1/ a while ago. It is an article by a non-shia muslim and he/she refutes the argument about this hadith well. Check it out inshaAllah. And just a quick note, this hadith if it means absolutely do not follow anything written except for the Qur'an then it would contradict the Qur'an because Allah swt commands us in the Qur'an to follow the commands of the Prophet sawas, how else would we do so if it was not from his Hadiths? So I believe if this Hadith you mentioned is true then it must have been - like the article in that link proves- in the beginning of the call before Qur'an was completed, and that after Qur'an was not "new" anymore and Islam has been for a whil then He sawas allowed them to write his Hadiths afterwards (check the article please for the exact proofs)

Point G) You said:
And why does no one answer the question of why there is no mention in Qur'an of the Mahdi? the biggest of all? the end of the world as we know it, the main figure in all of this, but not a single mention when its the sunna of Allah to foretell every major figure in history??? all i ask is why? explain it to me...

To that I replied earlier and said:

Point 5: You said:
if Allah meant the prophets family, there is no reason on earth or the heavens that he wouldn't just say it! or is Allah playing games with us? if Allah wants to say or mean something he says it. Its people that try to link certain things in the Quran, to possibly fabricated hadiths, to try to reinforce their beliefs in hadith. This (in my worthless opinion) is a dangerous game.

How could you make such claim brother? How could you decide for Allah swt what kind of way He must use to guide us or to test us? If He swt has willed that the nation of Muhammad sawas be tested by their obedience to Muhammad's family (a.s) then that's what it is! We do not worship God according to how we see fit, we worship Him according to what He wills!


As mentioned above brother, the verses in Qur'an can not be interpreted by us and they have to be interpreted by only the infallible Ahlul Bayt a.s, so there are verses in the Qur'an which are interpreted to be about the Mahdi a.s., not only from Ahlul Bayt Hadiths but also a lot from authentic Sunni sources as I quoted very few of them in the third post I made in this thread. The Qur'an is a book of guidance, not a compendium of rulings; it gives the generals, and the Messenger (sawas) is the one who explained to us the verses as the Qur'an directed him to: {And We revealed to you the message that you may clarify [LI TUBBAYINA] to the people what was sent down to them and that they might give thought.}[Surat Al-Nahl; Verse 44]. And he sawas, from Sunni and Shia sources, clarifies a lot about the Mahdi and his place in Qur'an and his Ahlul Bayt a.s.

How do you know whether the Hadith is true or not. I have also answered that in the above post, and said:
Point 2: You said:
And Abdullah Hashem himself has clearly demonstrated time and time again that hadiths are not to be trusted. They are the absolute cause of all the problems in islam, they divide the muslims (shia-sunni), they are huge ammunition for the kuffar to atttack our prophet (paedophile for example) and to attack the lost muslims that actually follow them and do crazy stuff because of them. and so do you pick and choose which hadiths you believe in and which you dont, because i dont think you and me have the right or authority to do that do we, and neither does anyone else.


That's exactly why The Prophet sawas and the Ahlul Bayt a.s have given us a way to know whether the Hadiths are true or not. They have clarified many times that in order to know whether the Hadith is wrong or true you have to present it upon the Qur'an, meaning you have to compare it to the Qur'an, if it opposes it or contradicts the Qur'an then the hadith is fake or wrong, and if the hadith goes with the Qur'an then the hadith is true.


You might ask again, so why is Mahdi a.s. not mentioned by name like this "Mahdi is going to come in the end times and he is the savior of mankind", why did God use allegorical verses to mean Al-Mahdi, why didn't He swt just make it clear to everyone?

Right? That's what you have been asking over and over. You're saying that if Mahdi is so important and such a great figure in the end times and such a big deal in our faith than how could Allah not mention him clearly?

That's exactly the point brother; it is because Mahdi a.s. is such an important and great matter, Allah swt did not mention him a compelling mentioning, He swt willed that the test of Muhammad's nation be in regards to Muhammad's sawas Ahlul Bayt a.s., so if the Muslims had followed Muhammad's Ahlul Bayt a.s sincerely they would know the Mahdi a.s. and believe in him. Brother SlaveofAllah, Religion is a test, a great exam which distinguishes elevated spirits from low ones. It therefore speaks of matters that everyone shall see with their eyes in the future in such a way that they remain neither altogether unknown, nor self-evident, because if they were completely self evident then every Muslim would be compelled to confirm them, then where would the test be in that?! Allah opens the door for us but He does not take the will from our hands. So He gave us the rope which we should hold tight to in order to always know the truth and not be misguided, but it's up to us whether to hold to this rope or not. This rope is Ahlul Bayt a.s. Because if a sign appeared completely self-evidently and everyone was compelled to affirm it, then where would the test of the Muslims be? If this is the way Allah swt has willed to test us then this is what it is.


And brother I would like to ask you to do something and I hope you accept inshAllah. If this is too much for you to read or to reply to then why don't you ignore everything I said and everything ever mentioned in this forum or anywhere else, and just go and ask Allah swt. Do you think if you go to God swt with a pure heart asking Him where guidance is and whether or not it is with Ahmed Alhasan a.s, would God lie to you? Would He swt let down and misguide a pure heart who wants nothing except His swt pleasure and straight path?? Imam Ahmed Alhasan a.s tells all people to ask Allah swt about him. Ask Allah swt and open the Qur'an and see which verse your eyes fall on, or pray and ask God sincerely to show you a vision in your sleep about where the truth is, or just ask God to show you any sign, but be sincere and determined to follow Allah's swt sign to you no matter what it is. And please don't forget to share with us the results.

Walaikum assalam waRahmutullah waBaraktuh
Last edited by Norhan El Kirsh on Thu Feb 05, 2015 1:31 am, edited 7 times in total.
#61998
Muhammed Yusuf wrote:بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم


The only person who said "Allahs book is sufficient for us" was Omar ibn al-khattab.

Now where is the difference, between a person who misinterprets a quran vers for example Sure 20:5 "The Most Merciful [who is] above the Throne established." (and we know what the wahabis say about these verses)

and somebody who misinterprets or believes in wrong hadith?


Who is the one to blame? you want to give the fault to all the Hadith and to the script that islam is divided? so that the people are innocent?
even though it's the nafs of those people that leads them to misunderstanding because they don't complemented their mind that far?
what about those people who were not dissolving from their ego that far so that they don't understand because of their ignorance?
you want to tell me that if all muslims would throw away all the hadiths we would not have any sects anymore?

A person who has purified himself through knowledge and those manners that Allah swt loves, can't be misguided because of some hadith..

Sure 2:213 And none differed over the Scripture except those who were given it - after the clear proofs came to them - out of jealous animosity among themselves. And Allah guided those who believed to the truth concerning that over which they had differed, by His permission. And Allah guides whom He wills to a straight path.


ps. I was a christian too bro


you aren't bringing anything but conjecture, i have presented to you facts, ayats from Quran even one of your hadiths to prove rasullAllah told you you shouldn't be following hadiths and all you can do is conjecture, well that's up to you. But don't you obey rasaulAllah? then why do you leave this? "Do not write anything from me except Quran. Anyone who wrote anything other than the Quran shall erase it." [Ahmed, Vol. 1, Page 171, and Sahih Moslim, Zuhd, Book 42, Number 7147] please answer me? you either obey rasulAllah or you dont. after this hadith every other hadith is going against rasulAllah's command and you are going against him by taking what he commanded not to be written down, are you not? how do you justify that with yourself and Allah?

Now where is the difference, between a person who misinterprets a quran vers for example Sure 20:5 "The Most Merciful [who is] above the Throne established." (and we know what the wahabis say about these verses)
These things are not a problem, they don't lead people astray, the verses in Quran that are not clear are nothing to do with salvation, they are only to do with belief and the unseen...

...now here is the problem...for example, we know the punishment in Quran for adultery is 100 whips yes, but the hadith of your hated Omar was stone to death...you see this is where the problems lie. if left up to the pious knowledgeable people among us, any rational person can see stoning to death is a massively unjust punishment for relatively small sin, but those who follow hadiths blindly go along with it. So to answer your quesiton- YES there us a massive difference between a person who misinterprets the Qur'an against someone who misinterprets or believes in a wrong hadith.

Can you show me a Ayat in Quran, when read in context, can lead to multitudes of innocent people being brutally killed?

A person who has purified himself through knowledge and those manners that Allah swt loves, can't be misguided because of some hadith..
Maybe you are correct, Maybe you aren't, but what about the multitudes of millions of others that are not totally purified? Islam came to defend the weak not put more pressure on them. If you follow the Quran alone you can NEVER go astray, if you follow hadiths you 'can' go astray

007.185 Do they see nothing in the government of the heavens and the earth and all that God hath created? (Do they not see) that it may well be that their terms is nigh drawing to an end? In what HADITH after this (Qur'an) will they then believe?
is the above ayat not clearly warning away from following any other hadith?

The only person who said "Allahs book is sufficient for us" was Omar ibn al-khattab.
No hes not! he is allegedly one of the people that said it along with millions of others, if he really did say it, i don't know? hadiths are Chinese whispers written 200 years after rasulAllah died, scratched on bones and parchment, maybe he did maybe he didnt who knows? maybe the whole situation was recorded wrong, maybe its a perfect representation of events, you and me will not know for sure until judgment day.

In my opinion what happened after rasulAllahs death may Allah's eternal blessing be upon him is nothing to do with you or me, we are not judged for it, it has no bearing on your salvation and none of us alive today can possibly know the truth of what happened so its pointless arguing over it. This is what i mean about hadiths, Sunni's shia arguing and killing each other over something that has nothing to do with them and they cant even know, what they are killing each other over actually happened...satan is laughing in our faces.

If Omar and Abu Bakr did all that abdullah has claimed then they are facing the severe consequences now. but whatever is true has no bearing on you or me so why waste you time fighting over it? leave them all to Allah and concentrate on your own salvation and your loved ones and then those around you, on making peace first between the believers then once our house is in order guide the rest of mankind to the truth.

salam
#62001
Assalamu alaykum SlaveofAllah,

Salam sis!

Thanks for your lengthy response. i can sense through your words 'you' are one of the purified as mention in previous posts inshAllah and i pray that should Allah be readying the 313 he makes you of the first of them.


I apologize for the long posts. I really try my best to be as brief as possible but you do mention a lot of points in your one post and I would like to reply to all of them, for you and for anyone else who is seeking the truth and watching this thread. So here's the deal, if you don't want to read everything I wrote to you then no problem let's end the argument at this post, but please do check out the last paragraph in green which is at the very end of this post. Thanks in advance.

[center]***[/center]

In the Name of Allah The Abundantly Merciful The Intensely Merciful. O Allah send Your prayers upon Muhammad and his family the Imams and the Mahdis.

A) You said:
You are the one following mens commandments, i'm the one following Gods commandments, so who is this ayat referring to??? "And he to whom Allah has not granted light - for him there is no light.(Sura An-'Nur 40) ??? you post it for me yet its actually regarding yourself subhanAllah!


No brother, we are following the Qur'an. I already answered you on that in points 3 and 4 which I mentioned in my previous post. Here they are again:

Point 3: You said:
no where in the Quran does Allah command us to follow the prophets family or anyone else after they are dead (peace be upon them)

And you said :
Again the hadiths have brought misguidance, corruption, death and bloodshed, so they cannot be trusted.


Yet when I asked you to tell me who the underlined ones in these verses are:
{It is He Who has revealed unto you the Book wherein are explicit verses—they are the Mother of the Book—and others [which are] allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue that which is allegorical seeking [to cause] dissension and seeking its interpretation. None knows its interpretation except for Allah and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge, they say, We believe therein; All is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really remember} [Holy Qur'an 3:7]
{Rather the Qur'an is clear verses in the hearts of those who were given knowledge. And none reject Our verses except the wrongdoers.} [Holy Quran 29:49]
{...But if they had referred it back to the Messenger or to those of authority among them, then the ones who [can] draw correct conclusions from it would have known it...} [Holy Qur'an 4:83].

My Response: As i said to you, they are people of knowledge. When Allah in the Quran speaks of a people he names them every time. when he spoke of Isa he named him a.s, and the same for every other person. when he spoke of the romans he names them, soddom he named them the people of lut a.s. here Allah spoke of the knowledgeable people, if he meant the ahulbayt he would of named them, he named them in 33:33 so there is no reason on earth to not name them here. And please dont turn around to me and say but brother how do you know what allah will say here - 1st because you have done the exact same thing NUMEROUS times, and secondly because when you read the Quran it becomes clear how Allah the almightly does things, he doesn't play games with something as serious as this. You have made it that he is speaking of ahulbayt here because it suits what you want to beleieve. If you believed something else you would say its not referring to the ahulbayt. I personally take it as Allah said it is the knowledgeable people, yes the pious scholars. Please don't tell me all scholars are bad, that's ridiculous, most scholars are good people, just a few are bad and i'm talking 'scholars' here not shiekhs that me and you have more knowledge than!


You said that they are the people of knowledge.

By Allah, don't you think that those people of knowledge would also bring misguidance and corruption and bloodshed? What do you mean the people of knowledge? You mean Sheikhs for example? Muslim scholars? Aren't those fallible people? Aren't they subjected to making mistakes regarding the interpretation of the Qur'an? Don't you see how there are million and one interpretations, contradicting each other, of the same verses given by those "people of knowledge"? Don't you see the crazy ridiculous Fatwas those "people of knowledge" give? Don't you see that because many people believe like you that the people of knowledge in those verses are scholars and sheikhs, so they referred to them the allegorical verses of Qur'an and then they interpreted for them by their sick fallible minds which caused bloodshed and misguidance everywhere? Would Allah really command us to refer to those regarding the interpretation of His holy words?

My Response: No i don't you think that those people of knowledge would also bring misguidance and corruption and bloodshed, because if the scholar follows and teaches nothing but Quran there is no chance of going astray. If he teaches hadith then yes he can go astray. And scholars are just a guide, you take what they say or dont, you compare what they say against Quran and either leave it or take it and then you will be judged for your decisions, but at the end of the day you are only judged against the Quran nothing else! How can Allah if he is fair judge me for not following what has been proven to be corrupt?

you said
"Would Allah really command us to refer to those regarding the interpretation of His holy words?"
Please show me these verses IN QURAN that can be easily misinterpreted when read in context, and cause all this chaos and bloodshed you are talking about?


Allah swt commands us in the Qur'an to obey three: Himself, His prophet, and those in authority among us. He swt says: {O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you} . So do you think, "the ones in authority among us" are the rulers or the Sheikhs or the scholars like some Muslims think now? Would Allah swt attach to Himself fallible rulers or fallible scholars? Would He swt make obedience to Him the same as obedience to fallible human beings? What if the one in authority among us does something wrong or commits a sin or gives a wrong Fatwa like the crazy Fatwas we hear nowadays, and then I obey him, what would I tell God on the Day of Judgment? Would I say, "But God, You commanded me to follow whoever is in authority among us!" Would God swt excuse me or forgive me? Of course not. They all contradict each other, which one do I choose?

My resposne: When Allah commands to obey the prophet here it is obviously for those that lived in his time, that's why he said and those in authority among us, because of course Allah knew the time would come when rasulAllah wasnt there and so we need to follow the knowledgable people after him 'saws'. Again If Allah meant the ahulbayt why didnt he say that? is he ashamed of mentioning them by name? what then? there is NO REASON to not mention them here except if he wasn't talking of them, or was talking of them among others. if he solely meant them then he would of mentioned them alone AS HE (subhanawa ta ala) DID IN EVERY OTHER PLACE IN THE QURAN! What you say makes no sense that Allah means the ahulbayt here but didn't say the ahulbayt here, it just makes no logical sense whatsoever. It only makes sense to you because you want to believe its talking of the ahulbayt, but to any unbiased mind it doesn't.

Therefore brother, just by pure logic, Allah swt commands us in Qur'an to obey those in authority among us, and he attached them to Himself swt and to His messenger sawas, in one sentence. Yet we know that Allah swt wouldn't command us to obey fallible human beings nor would He make obedience to fallible humans the same as obedience to Him and His Messenger. But on the other hand, Muhammad sawas attached his Ahlul Bayt a.s to the Qur'an, and he commanded us to follow them both. You do the math.

My response: But again this makes no sense. You tell me what we do then when there is no ayat, no hadith from the ahulbayt regarding a matter, what then? we would have to refer back to the scholars or make the decision ourselves so either way makes no difference, fallible people would be making the decision!!!

Again even if you refer back to hadiths of the ahulbayt, how do you know if they are true? you don't for sure. You are just best guessing. Because if all of the ahulbayt have been murdered, then Satan was behind all of that, do you think satan is going to leave their words untouched? absolutely not, they are the first words he will go after, because as i said before, above anything, he doesn't want us to have that guidance. The minute they die a.s all it takes is an evil king or ruler to change their words in the books to whatever they see fit and then no one that follows them down the generations can ever know the truth of the corruption. Thats a fact! because this very thing has happened numerous times in history, even Abdullah has highlighted instances of this in his films.


Point 4: You said:
007.185 Do they see nothing in the government of the heavens and the earth and all that God hath created? (Do they not see) that it may well be that their terms is nigh drawing to an end? In what HADITH after this (Qur'an) will they then believe?
is the above ayat not clearly warning away from following any other hadith than the Qur'an? i guess it is, so we need to be very careful here.


First off, Arabic is my mother tongue. In Arabic, the word "Hadith" means speech, or words, or statements. Having clarified that, we do not do anything other than what the Qur'an tells us to, and for sure we do not believe in anything other than the speech of Qur'an. And that's why brother we listen to Qur'an when it tells us to obey the prophet sawas {O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you} How do we obey the messenger sawas as the Qur'an commands us? Isn't it from the Hadiths of the Prophet? How else would you know the Prophet's commands? That's why we obey the Prophet's hadiths, because Qur'an commanded us to, and in those hadiths the prophet sawas commands us to hold tight to the Qur'an and his Ahlul bayt a.s and he tells us that they are the ones who are firmly grounded in knowledge and the ones who are in authority among us. So we must follow them, because we only follow what the Qur'an commands us to.


My Response: Im sorry i have to disagree with you strongly here. And for the record my wife's mother tongue is Arabic and my family's mother tongue is Arabic and my friends mother tongue is Arabic alhamdulilah and i have books and tools at my disposal here to get the deepest meaning of any word in the Arabic Quran, so i know exactly what the word hadith means. My point is Allah uses the exact word to warn away from following them, he could of used numerous other words but here but he chose that one coincidence? i dont think so.

you said:
How do we obey the messenger sawas as the Qur'an commands us? Isn't it from the Hadiths of the Prophet?
You obey rasulAllah by following the Quran, its the only way. how can i obey rasulAllah if he isn't with us anymore? you are not obeying him by following hadiths, you are obeying the person that wrote the hadiths, their interpretation of what he said, that's the killer here, rasullAllah didn't even write them himself (or have them written himself) he commanded against it, its other peoples recollection of events, and so easy to make mistakes on. And when you add the fact they are mostly recorded 200 years after the prophet died scratched on bones or whatnot only adds to the insanity of following them!


B) You said:
006.112 Likewise did We make for every Messenger an enemy,- evil ones among men and jinns, inspiring each other with flowery discourses by way of deception. If thy Lord had so planned, they would not have done it: so leave them and their inventions alone.
Does this following Ayat mean anything to you? 006.115 The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfilment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all.


I didn't get what you really wanted to say there, but if what you meant was that we change Allah's words, or that the Imams a.s. change Allah's words, then you are completely wrong. What we follow is the Imams' a.s. interpretation of the Qur'an. Their interpretation is not "change in words". It is just an interpretation of Allah's words. And matter of fact we must follow those interpretations and not follow our own understanding. Why? Because Allah swt commands us to. Where? Allah swt says that no one knows the interpretation of the Allegorical verses of Qur'an except for Allah and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge: {It is He Who has revealed unto you the Book wherein are explicit verses—they are the Mother of the Book—and others [which are] allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue that which is allegorical seeking [to cause] dissension and seeking its interpretation. None knows its interpretation except for Allah and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge, they say, We believe therein; All is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really remember} [Holy Qur'an 3:7]
{Rather the Qur'an is clear verses in the hearts of those who were given knowledge. And none reject Our verses except the wrongdoers.} [Holy Quran 29:49]
{...But if they had referred it back to the Messenger or to those of authority among them, then the ones who [can] draw correct conclusions from it would have known it...} [Holy Qur'an 4:83].
So how do we know that the ones underlined above are the Ahlul Bayt a.s. (apart from the million Hadiths that says so), check point A.

My response: No sis i meant the Quran here us telling us that evil jinn and men will come with hadiths (flowery discourses by way of deception) to confuse and corrupt mankind. the ayat above is telling us clearly they (evil jinn and men) will do this.

C) You said:
if hadiths clearly showed the way to pray, then why do all Muslims pray differently?

Actually I'm the one who wanted to ask you a very similar question: If prayer is mentioned in detail in Qur'an like you claim then why do Muslims pray differently?! Answer: Because 1) It is not mentioned in details (see point D), and 2) because they follow hadiths other than that of Ahlul Bayt's a.s. whom the Prophet sawas asked us to hold tight to them. Yes Qur'an clarifies everything, He swt says {And We have sent down upon you the Book as a clarification for all things} [Surat Al-Nahl 89]., meaning it shows the general law of everything. But does it enumerate (mention in detail) everything? No. And in no where in Qur'an does God say that Qur'an enumerates everything. Pay attention that clarification is different than "enumerating" or detailed mentioning. However, Allah swt mentions that everything is enumerated in a clear Imam {Indeed, it is We who bring the dead to life and record what they have put forth and what they left behind, and all things We have enumerated in a clear Imam} [Surat Yasin 36:12]. In the English translation of Qur'an, they translate the word "Imam" as "book" or "register". But, as I mentioned to you before, Arabic is my mother tongue, and the word Imam only means "Imam" which means leader or guide. Here is the word Imam in Arabic, إمام , go look it up yourself in an Arabic-English dictionary and you will see that it does not mean book or register and it only means guide or leader.

My response: i have explained the prayer clearly in the response to the brother in my last post.

Therefore, the enumeration (detailed mentioning of things) are with the Imams of the Ahlul Bayt a.s, whom Muhammad sawas clearly attached to the Qur'an before his death and commanded us to hold tight to them in order to "never be misguided" (check the hadith of the two weight things). So yes Qur'an mentions prayer in general, hajj in general, but the details of what exactly to do in every bow or in every prostration and how many times to do it etc is only to be known from the Imam of your time.

D) You said:
To answer yours and the sisters Question. The prayer is clearly mentioned in the Qur'an, to bow and prostrate and when to do it. show me another way to bow except for the way we do it? show me another way to prostrate than the way we do it? ill be waiting... the bible says jesus, abraham fell on their faces and prayed! exactly as we do.

Brother, surely bow is bow, and prostrate is prostrate, and stand is stand! No problem with that. What we mean is how do you know how many bows or prostrations to do? What exactly to say in each step? How many times to recite Al-Fatiha or the other Surahs? How do you know how many times to praise God in prostration? ETC! Throughout the Quran God didn't set any frequencies in connection to the worship practices. We do not find in the Quran any set number of times we must wash our hands in ablution or the number of times we must walk the distance between Safa and Marwah during Hajj (another pillar of Islam). The amount of times one circumambulates around the Kaaba; though the Qur’an asks us to go around the Kaaba it doesn’t actually tell us how many times we should do this, nor does it tell us details of the prayer like mentioned earlier, etc! Where do all the details we do in our prayer and hajj etc come from? They certainly don't come from the Quran! They come from Hadiths. The details of Adhan (the call for prayer) is not indicated in Qur’an, so we simply go to the Hadiths of our Prophet and his Ahlul Bayt to know how to call for prayer, and to know how to pray IN DETAIL, etc.

My response: again sis every action you are talking about here in the prayer is done differently throughout the Muslim world, the only things done exactly the same are the things mentioned in Quran subhanAllah!!!

Which brings us to the next point you made:

E) You said:
And to prove my point BEYOND ANY DOUBT Even all of you now, Ahmad al hassan has had to correct your prayer, its totally different, so tell me how have hadiths helped you? if they were any good he wouldnt of needed to correct your prayer would he, it would already be ok. Dont you see the terrible logic in your arguments?


Imam Ahmed Alhasan a.s came with the prayer of his forefathers a.s, the true prayer. The new thing was the part of the Adhan (the call to prayer) where we testify that the Mahdi and the Mahdis from his sons are the Proofs of Allah. And adding to the Adhan is not wrong, for as you might already know, the Adhan the general Muslims have today has a part added to it which was not present during the time of the Prophet sawas, and it has a part which is removed (which was present during the days of the Prophet sawas).

The part they add is : "al-salatu khayrun min al-nawm (prayer is better than sleep)" which they recite twice after "hayya ‘ala al-falah ". This part some Sunnis say was added by Umar ibn Al-Khattab to the prayer, and some say it was added by Abu Bakr. The important thing is that all of Muslims agree that it was "added" and that it wasn't present at the time of the Prophet sawas.

My response: no sis i have watched the prayer vid, its totally different from one vid to the next. And several things are now changed. if your argument was true regarding hadiths, there would be no reason for Ahmad to change/correct the prayer because it already would be ok. This proves beyond any doubt that hadiths cant be trusted to show us how to pray.

Sources:
Muwatta of Malik, Book 3, Hadeeth Number 3.1.8
Al-Farooq by Allama Shibli No’mani, page 295, published in Karachi.
Muwatta Imam Malik, Dhikr e Adhan.
Izalatul Khifa, volume 3, page 328, Sunan e Adhan.
Kanz al Ummal volume 4, page 270, Dhikr e Adhan.
Seerat al Halabiyah, volume 2, page 303, Dhikr e Adhan.
Nail al-Awtar, volume 2, page 43.
Sunan al-Kubra, page 425, by al-Beyhaqqi.
Tareekh Baghdad, volume 9, page 409.
Mishkat al Masabeeh, Volume 1 page 142

For the sake of brevity, let us quote from Muwatta:
"Yahya related to me from Malik that he had heard that the caller to prayer came to Umar ibn al-Khattab to call him to the morning prayer and found him sleeping, so he said, “Prayer is better than sleep,” and Umar ordered him to put that in the adman for fajr"


And the part they removed was: "“Haya Ala Khair al-Amal (hasten towards the best of actions)”, which we Shia still recite in the Adhan. These words have not been added by us, in fact they were recited by Muhammad (sawas) and the true inheritors of his knowledge the Imams from Ahl’ul bayt (as). Its validity can be established even from Sunni sources. I shall cite the following esteemed Sunni works:

Sharh Maqasid, volume 3 page 52
Sharh Tajreed, page 408

Qaushijee states in Sharh Tajreed:
(Umar said): ‘O people, three things were there during the reign of Allah’s messenger and I forbid them and will punish for practicing them and they are the Mut’ah of women, the Mut’ah of hajj and "Haya alaa khayri al-anal"’

Imam Saaduddin Taftazani states in Sharh Maqasid, Volume 3 page 512:
“It has been narrated that Umar said: ‘Three things existed during the time of Allah’s Messenger, I forbid and make them Haram, these are Mut’ah al-Nisa, Mut’ah al-Hajj and “Hay ala Khayr al-Amal"”.
Sharh Maqasid, Volume 3 page 512

Okay, now surprisingly, Hanafi Fiqh permits citing the names of Khaleefa’s while reciting Adhan. As proof look at the following esteemed Sunni works:

Fatah al-Qadeer Sharh Hidayah, page 215, Dhikr of Adhan.
Al-Kifaya Sharh Hidayah, page 215 by Jalal-ud-din Khuwarzmi.
Sharh Hidayah, page 215
Al-Badaya wal-Nihayah, Volume 9 page 267
Aojaz al-Masalik Sharh Muwatta e Imam Malik, volume 2, page 27.

Al-Kifaya:
“An innovation started by Imam of Ahl’ul Sunnah Abu Yusaf was that the Caller of Prayer (Moazzin) should take the names of Khaleefa’s and the Ameer and pay regards and blessings to him and after that he should say “Haya ala As-Salat” and this innovation was introduced as it was for the Caliphs of the Holy Prophet (s).”

Ibn Katheer while praising Umar Ibn Abdul Aziz writes in his esteemed work Al Bidaya wa al Nihaya:
“Umar ibn e Abdul-Aziz’s caliphate was the revival of Khilafat-e-Rasihida and the era of second life of the Islamic civilization and culture, Quranic orders, Prophetic Sunnah and the Islamic teachings.”

Al-Badayah wa Al-Nahayah, Vol 6, Page 267, By Ibn Katheer
Al-Badayah wa Al-Nahayah, Vol 6, Page 267, By Ibn Katheer
On the very next page we read:
“Uthman al-Rahi al-Hamsi narrates that he had heard the Moazzin of Umar ibn e Abdul Aziz convey Salaams to him in between Adhan by saying Asalam-o-Alaikum ya Ameer-al-Mo’mineen wa rehmatullah-e-wa-barakatuhu, Hai-e-alas-salat, hai-e-alal-falah, as-salat qad-qarbat, i-e “O! Leader of the believers, Allah’s blessings be on you, Hasten towards prayer, Hasten towards Prosperity, the time for prayer has approached.”
Al Bidaya wal Nihaya, Volume 9, Page 267, published by Nafees Academy Karachi

Note: If sending Salam on Umar Ibn Abdul Aziz in Adhan is okay then how can the recitation of "I bear witness that Ali and the Imams from his sons are the proofs of Allah, I bear witness that the Mahdi and the Mahdis of his sons are the proofs of Allah" be wrong?!

What else do you have against the prayer Ahmed Alhasan a.s taught us? Joining the prayers? That's what twelver Shia used to do before his arrival, because that's what Ahlul Bayt a.s mentioned in their Hadiths. Plus it is not obligatory to do so.

Not only that but Also Sunnis have in their books that Muhammad sawas used to join prayers as well. Here’s what Ibn Abbas, one of the most famous narrators, says according to the Musnad of Ibn Hanbal :
"The Prophet (Sawas) prayed in Madina, while residing there, not travelling, seven and eight (this is an indication to the seven Raka’t of Maghrib and Isha combined, and the eight Raka’t of Zuhr and`Asr combined)."
Musnad al-Imam Ibn Hanbal, vol. 1, page 221.

Also, in the Muwatta’ of Malik (Imam of Maliki sect), vol. 1, page 161, Ibn Abbas says:
"The Prophet (S) prayed Zuhr and `Asr in combination and Maghrib and Isha in combination without a reason for fear or travel."

As for Sahih Muslim, see the following under the chapter of "Combination of prayers, when one is resident":
Ibn Abbas reported: The messenger of Allah(may peace be upon him) observed the noon and the afternoon prayers together, and the sunset and Isha prayers together without being in a state of fear or in a state of journey

Sahih Muslim, English version, Chapter 250, Tradition #1515
Ibn Abbas reported that the messenger of Allah(may peace be upon him) combined the noon prayer with the afternoon prayer and the sunset prayer with the Isha prayer in Medina without being in a state of danger or rainfall. And in the hadith transmitted by Waki(the words are): "I said to Ibn Abbas: What prompted him to do that? He said: So that his(prophet’s)Ummah should not be put to (unnecessary) hardship."

Refer to http://www.al-islam.org/shiite-encyclop ... ted-issues for more about this and much more.

Point F) You said:
why is everyone running away from this hadith?
"Do not write anything from me except Quran. Anyone who wrote anything other than the Quran shall erase it." [Ahmed, Vol. 1, Page 171, and Sahih Moslim, Zuhd, Book 42, Number 7147]

A sister sent me the following the link http://discover-the-truth.com/2013/05/2 ... hs-part-1/ a while ago. It is an article by a non-shia muslim and he/she refutes the argument about this hadith well. Check it out inshaAllah. And just a quick note, this hadith if it means absolutely do not follow anything written except for the Qur'an then it would contradict the Qur'an because Allah swt commands us in the Qur'an to follow the commands of the Prophet sawas, how else would we do so if it was not from his Hadiths? So I believe if this Hadith you mentioned is true then it must have been - like the article in that link proves- in the beginning of the call before Qur'an was completed, and that after Qur'an was not "new" anymore and Islam has been for a whil then He sawas allowed them to write his Hadiths afterwards (check the article please for the exact proofs)

My response: You see if you take a drop of poison and drop it in a cup of pure water will you drink it and hope you miss the poison, drink the whole glass and be lucky enough that the last remaining drop you leave will be the poison? if you tell me one hadith is corrupt then they are all corrupt, because we have no way of knowing which is the corruption. But when you want to believe something, you pick and choose as you see fit.

if there was one word proved corrupt in the Qur'an you and i would reject it outright, nothing from God Almighty can be corrupted, so why don't you apply the same logic to the hadith?

You tell me what reason on earth there was for rasulAllah to say this hadith?
"Do not write anything from me except Quran. Anyone who wrote anything other than the Quran shall erase it." [Ahmed, Vol. 1, Page 171, and Sahih Moslim, Zuhd, Book 42, Number 7147]
except to warn away subhannAllah. This hadith is in perfect agreement wiht the Quran. Again no one can follow the prophet except through the Qur'an, i cant hear his words now, so i cant possibly follow him. If i follow hadith im following the person that wrote it NOT RASULALLAH. if he was in front of me now then that ayat if for me, if he isnt no logical person, and above all no fair God, can expect me to follow something attributed to a prophet 200 years after he died...play chinese whispers and see for yourself, then imagine over 1400 years of those chinese whispers, with evil men and evil jinn all working tirelessly to corrupt them, how anyone can seriously believe after all this that they are perfectly preserved is beyond me. Again you are judged against the Quran NOTHING else. please show me where allah says we will be judged on anythihng other than the quran?


Point G) You said:
And why does no one answer the question of why there is no mention in Qur'an of the Mahdi? the biggest of all? the end of the world as we know it, the main figure in all of this, but not a single mention when its the sunna of Allah to foretell every major figure in history??? all i ask is why? explain it to me...

To that I replied earlier and said:

Point 5: You said:
if Allah meant the prophets family, there is no reason on earth or the heavens that he wouldn't just say it! or is Allah playing games with us? if Allah wants to say or mean something he says it. Its people that try to link certain things in the Quran, to possibly fabricated hadiths, to try to reinforce their beliefs in hadith. This (in my worthless opinion) is a dangerous game.

How could you make such claim brother? How could you decide for Allah swt what kind of way He must use to guide us or to test us? If He swt has willed that the nation of Muhammad sawas be tested by their obedience to Muhammad's family (a.s) then that's what it is! We do not worship God according to how we see fit, we worship Him according to what He wills!


As mentioned above brother, the verses in Qur'an can not be interpreted by us and they have to be interpreted by only the infallible Ahlul Bayt a.s, so there are verses in the Qur'an which are interpreted to be about the Mahdi a.s., not only from Ahlul Bayt Hadiths but also a lot from authentic Sunni sources as I quoted very few of them in the third post I made in this thread. The Qur'an is a book of guidance, not a compendium of rulings; it gives the generals, and the Messenger (sawas) is the one who explained to us the verses as the Qur'an directed him to: {And We revealed to you the message that you may clarify [LI TUBBAYINA] to the people what was sent down to them and that they might give thought.}[Surat Al-Nahl; Verse 44]. And he sawas, from Sunni and Shia sources, clarifies a lot about the Mahdi and his place in Qur'an and his Ahlul Bayt a.s.

My response: Again im sorry you are wrong, the Qur'an tells us the clear verses are clear and easy for anyone to understand, then there are some verses ONLY ALLAH HIMSELF knows the real meaning, so these we will never know for whatever reason Allah wanted them there. But there is not a verse in the Qur'an for salvation that isnt clear, concise and straight to the point. 'You do this this happens', 'you dont do this this happens'. Please show me the verses pertaining to our salvation that cant easily be understood? please post them.


How do you know whether the Hadith is true or not. I have also answered that in the above post, and said:
Point 2: You said:
And Abdullah Hashem himself has clearly demonstrated time and time again that hadiths are not to be trusted. They are the absolute cause of all the problems in islam, they divide the muslims (shia-sunni), they are huge ammunition for the kuffar to atttack our prophet (paedophile for example) and to attack the lost muslims that actually follow them and do crazy stuff because of them. and so do you pick and choose which hadiths you believe in and which you dont, because i dont think you and me have the right or authority to do that do we, and neither does anyone else.


That's exactly why The Prophet sawas and the Ahlul Bayt a.s have given us a way to know whether the Hadiths are true or not. They have clarified many times that in order to know whether the Hadith is wrong or true you have to present it upon the Qur'an, meaning you have to compare it to the Qur'an, if it opposes it or contradicts the Qur'an then the hadith is fake or wrong, and if the hadith goes with the Qur'an then the hadith is true.


My response: but what about for the hundreds of years when there is no ahulbayt alive, what then? it makes no sense. as soon as they die their words can be corrupted. how do you explain that? What about the hadith that there is no mention in the Quran of the situation? and there are many, then what do you do? ill tell you, you do exactly what the Qur'an commands and fall back to the knowledgeable people subhanAllah! the Qur'an was never wrong

You might ask again, so why is Mahdi a.s. not mentioned by name like this "Mahdi is going to come in the end times and he is the savior of mankind", why did God use allegorical verses to mean Al-Mahdi, why didn't He swt just make it clear to everyone?

Right? That's what you have been asking over and over. You're saying that if Mahdi is so important and such a great figure in the end times and such a big deal in our faith than how could Allah not mention him clearly?

That's exactly the point brother; it is because Mahdi a.s. is such an important and great matter, Allah swt did not mention him a compelling mentioning, He swt willed that the test of Muhammad's nation be in regards to Muhammad's sawas Ahlul Bayt a.s., so if the Muslims had followed Muhammad's Ahlul Bayt a.s sincerely they would know the Mahdi a.s. and believe in him. Brother SlaveofAllah, Religion is a test, a great exam which distinguishes elevated spirits from low ones. It therefore speaks of matters that everyone shall see with their eyes in the future in such a way that they remain neither altogether unknown, nor self-evident, because if they were completely self evident then every Muslim would be compelled to confirm them, then where would the test be in that?! Allah opens the door for us but He does not take the will from our hands. So He gave us the rope which we should hold tight to in order to always know the truth and not be misguided, but it's up to us whether to hold to this rope or not. This rope is Ahlul Bayt a.s. Because if a sign appeared completely self-evidently and everyone was compelled to affirm it, then where would the test of the Muslims be? If this is the way Allah swt has willed to test us then this is what it is.


My response: What you say here doesn't make sense to me. You are making out like Allah plays games with us like some evil child burning ants with a magnifying glass in the sun. This is not Allah the Almighty. He gave us clear commands to follow, perfectly laid out, there is no reason for him to do this to us. On one hand he mentions/foretells every major figure throughout history, then when it matters most, and there are the most people alive on earth in desperate need of guidance, he suddenly changes and decides to play guessing games with us? Glory be to Allah far above any of this that is being attributed to him.

And brother I would like to ask you to do something and I hope you accept inshAllah. If this is too much for you to read or to reply to then why don't you ignore everything I said and everything ever mentioned in this forum or anywhere else, and just go and ask Allah swt. Do you think if you go to God swt with a pure heart asking Him where guidance is and whether or not it is with Ahmed Alhasan a.s, would God lie to you? Would He swt let down and misguide a pure heart who wants nothing except His swt pleasure and straight path?? Imam Ahmed Alhasan a.s tells all people to ask Allah swt about him. Ask Allah swt and open the Qur'an and see which verse your eyes fall on, or pray and ask God sincerely to show you a vision in your sleep about where the truth is, or just ask God to show you any sign, but be sincere and determined to follow Allah's swt sign to you no matter what it is. And please don't forget to share with us the results.


InshAllah sis, thank you.
Walaikum assalam waRahmutullah waBaraktuh
Salam

ps. please sis, make it easier from now on. post one or two points at a time and we can go through them. That is easier for everyone reading to follow, when there are huge chunks of text it puts people off reading.
#62003
unplugged wrote:SlaveOfAllah, Prophet Muhammad (sawas) as well as all his purified family members (as) did not die… they left the world - there is a difference here, which is crucial for understanding. Can a soul die?


ok they didnt die, i accept. It makes absolutely no difference to my argument/points. When they are gone, we have no way of knowing what is recorded of their words is true or false. All i know is that it has been proved that all hadith books have errors...

004.082 Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than God, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy.

This is exactly the truth, Allah is telling you here every other book will contain mistakes, contradictions, corruption etc etc so why follow them? every book written by man is corruptible. Go read the hadith books, when i converted years ago i used to read them and think WTF??? They would shake my faith when i read the craziness in them...But then I would read the Qur'an and recite it in Arabic and be taken to such a spiritual level i feel i could fly subhanAllah!

jesus said "by the fruits ye shall know them"

hadiths have lead to multitudes of innocent people dead and then multitudes of people in hell for following them and doing evil (stoning to death for example). Hadiths have divided islam for centuries, and caused millions of muslims to kill other muslims for centuries...get rid of hadiths you unite islam, get rid of hadiths and no more stoning to death of people that fall into adultery.

compared to the Quran:

Never a word changed, brings light to the person that reads, it, heals the sick when they read it, contains wondrous miracles never seen before by mankind and guides billions to Allah.

by the fruits ye shall know them...every evil tree will bear evil fruit, every good tree will bear good fruit...

Quran = nothing evil ever came from it, EVER!
Hadith = all of the above!!! death, destruction, division, hell.

Salam.
#62007
Abdullah Hashem wrote:[center]قال علي (عليه السلام) إن حديثنا تشمئز منه القلوب فمن عرف فزيدوهم ومن أنكر فذروهم[/center]
[center]Imam Ali a.s. said: "Verily the hearts become disgusted by our hadiths, so whoever knows then increase them and whoever denies then leave them"[/center]


Im very disappointed with you Abdullah. i have never once attacked the ahul bayt, never once said i feel anything but love for them, i have never once said anything agaisnt Ahmad al hassan, all i have done is debate the veracity of hadith and the dangers they pose. For you to post that and imply it against me is very low! AND IS JUST A WAY FOR YOU ALL TO RUN AWAY FROM THIS DEBATE!!!

And see how you will even twist the hadith. That hadith is obviously referring to people that feel disgust at their hadith while 'knowing' they are the hadith of theirs. I have never once said i am referring to the actual words of rasulAllahs family and you know it, so that was very wrong of you to imply that (Allah forgive your mistake), i am talking about and have always talked about the corrupted hadith, corrupted by evil men and jinn, i will await your apology.

And isn't it ironic that that is a hadith? lol :oops: :shock:

And the irony again, you are the one that has proved they are corrupt lol and now you are defending them? make up your mind bro.

Did Ali really say that hadith? would you swear your life and your children's lives and your chance of paradise and your children's chance of paradise and you and your children will burn in hell forever if you are wrong...that that is 100% true and correct exactly as Ali said it? please answer that honestly.

why do you take that hadith and not this one? i dont understand...

"Do not write anything from me except Quran. Anyone who wrote anything other than the Quran shall erase it." [Ahmed, Vol. 1, Page 171, and Sahih Moslim, Zuhd, Book 42, Number 7147]

rather than just post a one line hadith, way out of context (that you got from where i don't know?) why don't you join the debate and actually answer all my points?
Last edited by SlaveOfAllah on Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
#62008
Zayd Ibn Thabit (The Prophet's closest revelation writer) visited the Khalifa Mu'aawiyah (more than 30 years after the Prophet's death), and told him a story about the Prophet. Mu'aawiyah liked the story and ordered someone to write it down. But Zayd said. " the messenger of God ordered us never to write anything of his hadith".

(3) The famous book, "Ulum Al-Hadith" by Ibn Al-Salah, reports a hadith by Abu Hurayra in which Abu Hurayra said the Messenger of God came out to us while we were writing his hadiths and said; "What are you writing?" We said, "hadiths that we hear from you, messenger of God." He said, "A book other than the book of God?" We said, "Should we talk about you?" He said, Talk about me, that would be fine, but those who will lie will go to Hell. Abu Hurayra said, we collected what we wrote of hadiths and burned them in fire.

(4) In the famous book, "Taq-yeed Al-Ilm", Abu Hurayra said, the Messenger of God was informed that some people are writing his hadiths. He took to the pulpit of the mosque and said, "What are these books that I heard you wrote? I am just a human being. Anyone who has any of these writings should bring it here. Abu Hurayra said we collected all these and burned them in fire.

(6) Again, in the book "Taq-yeed Al-Ilm", Abu Saeed Al-Khudry said, " I asked the Messenger of God a permission to write his hadiths, but he refused to give me a permission."


Can anyone answer this???
#62010
Salam SlaveofAllah,

SlaveOfAllah wrote:Zayd Ibn Thabit (The Prophet's closest revelation writer) visited the Khalifa Mu'aawiyah (more than 30 years after the Prophet's death), and told him a story about the Prophet. Mu'aawiyah liked the story and ordered someone to write it down. But Zayd said. " the messenger of God ordered us never to write anything of his hadith".


Response: Zaid ibn thabit never met Muawiyah. Reasons are as follows:

Prophet Muhammed (sawas) died in the year 633. Zaid Ibn Thabit died in the year 660. Muawiya came in power and became the leader in the year 661. According to hadith rejecters this incident you quoted above took place in the year 663.

Question: How could Zaid have met Muawiya in the year 663 when Zaid died in the year 660?.

If this is not sufficient enough for a reply to you or if you doubt the dates mentioned above (even though they are confirmed by the very people who call themselves "Quranists" i.e hadith rejectors), then please do know that Muawiya (may Allah curse him) did get Hadith written down. Here are two traditions from the most authentic Sunni book Sahih Bukhari (I'm quoting these hadiths just to refute the hadith you brought forth and from the same source you brought it, just like how you argue with Christians using their own bible even though you don't believe in it, but of course you know we do not hold any respect to Muawiya may Allah's eternal curse be upon him and his son Yazeed)

Narrated by Warrad (The clerk of Al-Mughira) Muawiya wrote to Al-Mughira: “Write to me what you have heard from Allah’s Apostle.” So he (Al-Mughira) wrote to him: Allah’s Prophet used to say at the end of each prayer: “La ilaha illalla-h wahdahu la sharika lahu, lahul Mulku, wa lahul Hamdu wa hula ala kulli shai’in qadir. ‘Allahumma la mani’ a lima a’taita, wala mu’tiya lima mana’ta, wala yanfa’u dhuljadd minkal-jadd.” He also wrote to him that the Prophet used to forbid:
(1) Qil and Qal (idle useless talk or that you talk too much about others),
(2) Asking too many questions (in disputed religious matters);
(3) And wasting one’s wealth by extravagance;
(4) and to be undutiful to one’smother
(5) and to bury the daughters alive
(6) and to prevent your favors (benevolence) to others (i.e. not to pay the rights of others)
(7) And asking others for something (except when it is unavoidable).
(Source: Sahih Bukhari Hadith Volume 9. Number: 395)


And

Narrated by Warrad: Muawiya wrote to Mughira, “Write to me what you heard the Prophet saying after his prayer.” So Al-Mughira dictated to me and said, “I heard the Prophet saying after the prayer, ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah Alone Who has no partner. O Allah! No one can withhold what you give, and none can give what you withhold, and the fortune of a man of means is useless before you (i.e., only good deeds are of value). “(Source: Sahih Bukhari Hadith Volume 8. Number: 612)
Last edited by Norhan El Kirsh on Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:33 pm, edited 3 times in total.
H- Pierre (Hidjara).

Salam, Une Pierre-Témoin. H-5. Mahdi est un[…]

A- Nom nouveau du Mahdi.

Salam, Miséricorde partout. A-18. Une sœur r[…]

S- L'Islam comme Religion ?

Salam, Petit Rappel du Rappel. S- 12. Le Ra[…]