Here is a section for debates. Here you can discuss and debate topics within Islam and between Islam and other religions.
#61978
dawnoftheage wrote:Firstly, If your arguing merely for the sake of arguing then your wasting your time and everybody else`s, i posted in order for you to grasp the fact that the interpretation of the Quran can only be achieved by those vested in knowledge, namely the holy prophet and his progeny which has been proven to you through many authentic and reliable sources that you cannot refute at all. Secondly there are many aspects to jurisprudence that are not detailed in the Quran but are obligatory as part of worship. Who do you think explained all of these practices, of course the answer is the Prophet and his progeny (pbut) Its such a pity that you`ve been here from the beginning and have not grasped any of the abundant knowledge shared.

Peace


well i can throw that right back at you cant i, are 'you' just arguing for the sake of arguing? you sound very arrogant! you are so sensitive about all this, if anyone comes with a clear argument that goes against what you believe you get all panicky and defensive.

you didn't answer one point i made, just posted a hadith which is the very thing im saying is pointless, because for all i know (and as Abdullah himself has proved beyond doubt) its corrupt, a lie, a fabrication etc etc.

no one can answer why Allah mentioned numerous things/people/events far less important than all this is supposed to be, and yet never mentioned one word of any of this! did he forget? is he playing games with us? what? you cant explain it except with hadiths, and so you are in a viscous cycle of confusion. you want so badly to believe, that all sense and logic goes out the window.

i can prove what im saying from the Quran NOT HADITHS

The Quran warns you that lies/hadiths will be invented

006.112 Likewise did We make for every Messenger an enemy,- evil ones among men and jinns, inspiring each other with flowery discourses by way of deception. If thy Lord had so planned, they would not have done it: so leave them and their inventions alone.

Quran is fully detailed:

006.114 Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than God? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.


Now to say that someone will come and change the Quran? the Quran denies this is possible, which goes against your hadiths:

006.115 The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfilment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all.

what are you going to believe, the Quran, or a possibly fabricated hadith? it doesn't get much clearer than this!


Now for the hadiths themselves. if you follow all sahih hadiths explain this hadith? do you ignore this one? why? because its suits you?

"Do not write anything from me except Quran. Anyone who wrote anything other than the Quran shall erase it." [Ahmed, Vol. 1, Page 171, and Sahih Moslim, Zuhd, Book 42, Number 7147]


Suerly you should obey this^^^^^^ if you believe in hadiths?


peace
#61979
obviously your sole interest here is to argue for the sake of arguing
know that your very attitude and way of reaction clearly proves the truth of the Ahlulbayt a.s. of Muhammad (sawas)

Imam Al Mahdi a.s. has sent his messenger Ahmad Al Hasan a.s. to inform the people about their truth and the truth of their enemies,
so that the ignorant people might get out of the pits of the darkness they are in by the letters of knowledge spread in his books
the evidence has been laid out in front of you in a most clear manner
the sources are available on the net (http://www.youtube.com/anssaralmahdi http://www.almahdyoon.org http://www.saviorofmankind.com/)
you have been told
the choice is yours
#61981
Salam SlaveofAllah

I would like to reply to your arguments, and I will try to be as brief as possible.

Point 1: You said:
Prayer is mentioned clearly in the Quran and it tells you how to do it, bow and prostrate and when to do it.


In the Qur'an, Allah swt mentions the clear comprehensive laws of worship; For example regarding prayer, He swt clarifies that prayer is bowing and prostration and reciting Qur'an. But how do you know the details of what to do in each step? The answer: Only from Hadiths.

Point 2: You said:
And Abdullah Hashem himself has clearly demonstrated time and time again that hadiths are not to be trusted. They are the absolute cause of all the problems in islam, they divide the muslims (shia-sunni), they are huge ammunition for the kuffar to atttack our prophet (paedophile for example) and to attack the lost muslims that actually follow them and do crazy stuff because of them. and so do you pick and choose which hadiths you believe in and which you dont, because i dont think you and me have the right or authority to do that do we, and neither does anyone else.


That's exactly why The Prophet sawas and the Ahlul Bayt a.s have given us a way to know whether the Hadiths are true or not. They have clarified many times that in order to know whether the Hadith is wrong or true you have to present it upon the Qur'an, meaning you have to compare it to the Qur'an, if it opposes it or contradicts the Qur'an then the hadith is fake or wrong, and if the hadith goes with the Qur'an then the hadith is true.

Which brings us to the next point.

Point 3: You said:
no where in the Quran does Allah command us to follow the prophets family or anyone else after they are dead (peace be upon them)

And you said :
Again the hadiths have brought misguidance, corruption, death and bloodshed, so they cannot be trusted.


Yet when I asked you to tell me who the underlined ones in these verses are:
{It is He Who has revealed unto you the Book wherein are explicit verses—they are the Mother of the Book—and others [which are] allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue that which is allegorical seeking [to cause] dissension and seeking its interpretation. None knows its interpretation except for Allah and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge, they say, We believe therein; All is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really remember} [Holy Qur'an 3:7]
{Rather the Qur'an is clear verses in the hearts of those who were given knowledge. And none reject Our verses except the wrongdoers.} [Holy Quran 29:49]
{...But if they had referred it back to the Messenger or to those of authority among them, then the ones who [can] draw correct conclusions from it would have known it...} [Holy Qur'an 4:83].

You said that they are the people of knowledge.

By Allah, don't you think that those people of knowledge would also bring misguidance and corruption and bloodshed? What do you mean the people of knowledge? You mean Sheikhs for example? Muslim scholars? Aren't those fallible people? Aren't they subjected to making mistakes regarding the interpretation of the Qur'an? Don't you see how there are million and one interpretations, contradicting each other, of the same verses given by those "people of knowledge"? Don't you see the crazy ridiculous Fatwas those "people of knowledge" give? Don't you see that because many people believe like you that the people of knowledge in those verses are scholars and sheikhs, so they referred to them the allegorical verses of Qur'an and then they interpreted for them by their sick fallible minds which caused bloodshed and misguidance everywhere? Would Allah really command us to refer to those regarding the interpretation of His holy words?

Allah swt commands us in the Qur'an to obey three: Himself, His prophet, and those in authority among us. He swt says: {O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you} . So do you think, "the ones in authority among us" are the rulers or the Sheikhs or the scholars like some Muslims think now? Would Allah swt attach to Himself fallible rulers or fallible scholars? Would He swt make obedience to Him the same as obedience to fallible human beings? What if the one in authority among us does something wrong or commits a sin or gives a wrong Fatwa like the crazy Fatwas we hear nowadays, and then I obey him, what would I tell God on the Day of Judgment? Would I say, "But God, You commanded me to follow whoever is in authority among us!" Would God swt excuse me or forgive me? Of course not. They all contradict each other, which one do I choose?

Therefore brother, just by pure logic, Allah swt commands us in Qur'an to obey those in authority among us, and he attached them to Himself swt and to His messenger sawas, in one sentence. Yet we know that Allah swt wouldn't command us to obey fallible human beings nor would He make obedience to fallible humans the same as obedience to Him and His Messenger. But on the other hand, Muhammad sawas attached his Ahlul Bayt a.s to the Qur'an, and he commanded us to follow them both. You do the math.

Point 4: You said:
007.185 Do they see nothing in the government of the heavens and the earth and all that God hath created? (Do they not see) that it may well be that their terms is nigh drawing to an end? In what HADITH after this (Qur'an) will they then believe?
is the above ayat not clearly warning away from following any other hadith than the Qur'an? i guess it is, so we need to be very careful here.


First off, Arabic is my mother tongue. In Arabic, the word "Hadith" means speech, or words, or statements. Having clarified that, we do not do anything other than what the Qur'an tells us to, and for sure we do not believe in anything other than the speech of Qur'an. And that's why brother we listen to Qur'an when it tells us to obey the prophet sawas {O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you} How do we obey the messenger sawas as the Qur'an commands us? Isn't it from the Hadiths of the Prophet? How else would you know the Prophet's commands? That's why we obey the Prophet's hadiths, because Qur'an commanded us to, and in those hadiths the prophet sawas commands us to hold tight to the Qur'an and his Ahlul bayt a.s and he tells us that they are the ones who are firmly grounded in knowledge and the ones who are in authority among us. So we must follow them, because we only follow what the Qur'an commands us to.

Point 5: You said:
if Allah meant the prophets family, there is no reason on earth or the heavens that he wouldn't just say it! or is Allah playing games with us? if Allah wants to say or mean something he says it. Its people that try to link certain things in the Quran, to possibly fabricated hadiths, to try to reinforce their beliefs in hadith. This (in my worthless opinion) is a dangerous game.

How could you make such claim brother? How could you decide for Allah swt what kind of way He must use to guide us or to test us? If He swt has willed that the nation of Muhammad sawas be tested by their obedience to Muhammad's family (a.s) then that's what it is! We do not worship God according to how we see fit, we worship Him according to what He wills!

Point 6: You said:
002.170 When it is said to them: "Follow what God hath revealed:" They say: "Nay! we shall follow the ways of our fathers." What! even though their fathers Were void of wisdom and guidance?
Its my opinion that Muslims that are born Muslim (into a Muslim family i mean) and brought up through Muslim families will choose the sect of islam from their family most of the time, just like in Christendom


I was born in a Sunni family, in a Sunni country. So no, I didn't follow the ways of my fathers. What I followed was the Qur'an. And in the Qur'an I found that I must follow Muhammad sawas. And in Muhammad's sawas Hadiths I found that I must follow his Ahlul Bayt a.s. And that's how I have become a Shia of the Ahlul Bayt a.s. As simple as that.

Point 7: You said:
Most of you are shia on here, yet you bring sunni hadiths? one minute you attack the sahih hadiths for being lies and fabrications, the next you use them to back your argument up, where is your sense of fairness?


Even though you believe that the Gospels and Torah have corruptions in them you still use them to convince Christians and Jews that Muhammad sawas was mentioned in their scriptures and to argue with them that they must follow him. Don't you?

Peace back to you.
#61982
unplugged wrote:obviously your sole interest here is to argue for the sake of arguing
know that your very attitude and way of reaction clearly proves the truth of the Ahlulbayt a.s. of Muhammad (sawas)

Imam Al Mahdi a.s. has sent his messenger Ahmad Al Hasan a.s. to inform the people about their truth and the truth of their enemies,
so that the ignorant people might get out of the pits of the darkness they are in by the letters of knowledge spread in his books
the evidence has been laid out in front of you in a most clear manner
the sources are available on the net (http://www.youtube.com/anssaralmahdi http://www.almahdyoon.org http://www.saviorofmankind.com/)
you have been told
the choice is yours


ah ok, so im just arguing. Because you could find no answers to any of what i have said, you post a link to millions of hadiths.

i bring Quran alone, yet im the bad guy. subhanAllah! i obey what Allah alone tells me and im the bad guy?

But what if its the other way around and Allah sent me here to warn all of you? and now you have been warned, and now the choice is yours?

saviour of mankind, do you realise how big that statement is - yet Allah didn't mention him? i just dont understand that.

Peace.
#61983
SlaveOfAllah wrote:
salam

Sorry bro you're way off. Jesus was mentioned and prophesied numerous times in the torah/old testament as the coming 'Messiah'.
There is no mention by name of the Mahdi in the Quran, not one, so the original Question remains


Yes, There was no mention by name of Jesus son of Mary a.s in the whole Torah, and if i'm wrong show me one vers where the name "JESUS SON OF MARY" is written there. He was mentioned as "Messiah" or "Immanuël" but not "Jesus" or "Yeshua". If Jesus would have been mention by name, then the matter would have been so clear, that the believers of the jews would have waited for a person called "Jesus" and they wouldn't have rejected him and there would have been no space for discussion, because in such a case the unseen (name/messenger) would be revealed before the test.

SlaveOfAllah wrote:Prophet Muhammad saws was mentioned by name and title and description in the christian scriptures, Isa was mentioned by title numerous times in the Jewish scriptures,..



In Torah: 15 “The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brothers—it is to him you shall listen— 16 just as you desired of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly, when you said, ‘Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God or see this great fire any more, lest I die.’ 17 And the Lord said to me, ‘They are right in what they have spoken. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.

In Quran: And [mention] when Jesus, the son of Mary, said, "O children of Israel, indeed I am the messenger of Allah to you confirming what came before me of the Torah and bringing good tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name is Ahmad."

You will not find "Ahmad" , "Muhammad" or "Jesus" in the Jewish scriptures, except through interpretation. Like the Rakats of prayers in the holy Quran. And if you say now that in the Jewish/Christians scriptures
words were changed, yes but why Allah swt allowed it? the light/truth is still there in the scriptures for truth seekers. Now where is the problem if the Mahdi a.s is mentioned in the Quran as "The hour" ?

SlaveOfAllah wrote:Also the above Ayat is out of context regarding this debate, that is for a people who a 'Prophet' had come to, who had been told was coming (as all prophets were foretold) and who provided miracles of some sort as all prophets were provided in one way or another.


you didn't get the point of the ayat, Yet [in the end,] such evil scheming will engulf none but its authors: and can they expect anything but [to be made to go] the way of those [sinners] of olden times? Thus [it is]: no change wilt thou ever find in God’s way; yea, no deviation wilt thou ever find in God’s way!

And [We sent] messengers about whom We have related [their stories] to you before and messengers about whom We have not related to you. Sure 4 Vers 164
So do you not believe in those who were not mentioned by name?

Wa Salam
#61985
Muhammed Yusuf wrote:
SlaveOfAllah wrote:
salam

Sorry bro you're way off. Jesus was mentioned and prophesied numerous times in the torah/old testament as the coming 'Messiah'.
There is no mention by name of the Mahdi in the Quran, not one, so the original Question remains


Yes, There was no mention by name of Jesus son of Mary a.s in the whole Torah, and if i'm wrong show me one vers where the name "JESUS SON OF MARY" is written there. He was mentioned as "Messiah" or "Immanuël" but not "Jesus" or "Yeshua". If Jesus would have been mention by name, then the matter would have been so clear, that the believers of the jews would have waited for a person called "Jesus" and they wouldn't have rejected him and there would have been no space for discussion, because in such a case the unseen (name/messenger) would be revealed before the test.

SlaveOfAllah wrote:Prophet Muhammad saws was mentioned by name and title and description in the christian scriptures, Isa was mentioned by title numerous times in the Jewish scriptures,..



In Torah: 15 “The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brothers—it is to him you shall listen— 16 just as you desired of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly, when you said, ‘Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God or see this great fire any more, lest I die.’ 17 And the Lord said to me, ‘They are right in what they have spoken. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.

In Quran: And [mention] when Jesus, the son of Mary, said, "O children of Israel, indeed I am the messenger of Allah to you confirming what came before me of the Torah and bringing good tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name is Ahmad."

You will not find "Ahmad" , "Muhammad" or "Jesus" in the Jewish scriptures, except through interpretation. Like the Rakats of prayers in the holy Quran. And if you say now that in the Jewish/Christians scriptures
words were changed, yes but why Allah swt allowed it? the light/truth is still there in the scriptures for truth seekers. Now where is the problem if the Mahdi a.s is mentioned in the Quran as "The hour" ?

SlaveOfAllah wrote:Also the above Ayat is out of context regarding this debate, that is for a people who a 'Prophet' had come to, who had been told was coming (as all prophets were foretold) and who provided miracles of some sort as all prophets were provided in one way or another.


you didn't get the point of the ayat, Yet [in the end,] such evil scheming will engulf none but its authors: and can they expect anything but [to be made to go] the way of those [sinners] of olden times? Thus [it is]: no change wilt thou ever find in God’s way; yea, no deviation wilt thou ever find in God’s way!

And [We sent] messengers about whom We have related [their stories] to you before and messengers about whom We have not related to you. Sure 4 Vers 164
So do you not believe in those who were not mentioned by name?

Wa Salam


salam

i never once said isa/jesus was mentioned by name, i said by title 'the messiah', please go back and read what i said bro. i said Muhammad is mentioned by name

And you are wrong, Muhammad 'is' mentioned BY NAME 'Muhammad' in the jewish torah, Thats the Jewish torah of today, the one that the Jews have with them today! they recite his name every day right now- 'Muhammad'. I am a convert bro, i was a christian all my life until i converted to islam alhamdulillah, i know the bible very well.

would you like me to show you where?

yes the bible has been corrupted beyond all recognition, because Allah never promised to protect it like the Quran. And any book that is written by men (and not protected by Allah) you will find errors and contradictions and corruption to suit evil mens ends.

so the messiah is mentioned/foretold, Muhammad mentioned/foretold, why is not the Mahdi mentioned in the Qur'an? the biggest of all and not a single word? WHY? i just don't get it.

im not saying i was expecting to find Ahmad Al Hassan in the Quran, but the name the entire world knows him by, the Mahdi surely we can expect to find that as it is the sunna of Allah thoughout history to give us advanced warning.

And so you are now trying to claim that 'the hour' is imam mahdi? now this is just getting ridiculous. The mahdi is known as the Mahdi, not the hour, the hour is described as the end times event/catastrophe. Since when is the hour the Mahdi? do you have proof for this? i mean even a hadith? or are you just making it up as you go along?

the messiah = foretold multiple times
Muhammad = foretold multiple times
Mahdi = Not a single instance in the Quran - All im asking is why not?

you said "So do you not believe in those who were not mentioned by name?" i don't understand your question. who are you referring to? everyone of importance to us is mentioned in the Qur'an aren't they? if Allah didn't mention them in the Qur'an, then we didn't need to know about them, if we did he would of mentioned them wouldn't he?

salam
#61990
Salam SlaveOf....

Sister Norhan have answered all the question you asked!
For example you could't gave an logical answer to her question regarding the Prayer!
Please show us from the holy Quran how to perform the ritual prayer!
If you not belive in The Mahdi (a.s) it's your problem.


"And he to whom Allah has not granted light - for him there is no light.(Sura An-'Nur 40)
#61994
maqtalDulam wrote:Salam SlaveOf....

Sister Norhan have answered all the question you asked!
For example you could't gave an logical answer to her question regarding the Prayer!
Please show us from the holy Quran how to perform the ritual prayer!
If you not belive in The Mahdi (a.s) it's your problem.


"And he to whom Allah has not granted light - for him there is no light.(Sura An-'Nur 40)


why slaveOf...? is that supposed to be an attack or insult to me? Pretty rubbish attempt if it is! How sad that im the one defending the Quran's perfectness, yet you see me as someone bad, how ironic! There is something wrong with 'you' if you see someone who is defending the Quran as bad.

You are the one following mens commandments, i'm the one following Gods commandments, so who is this ayat referring to??? "And he to whom Allah has not granted light - for him there is no light.(Sura An-'Nur 40) ??? you post it for me yet its actually regarding yourself subhanAllah!

006.112 Likewise did We make for every Messenger an enemy,- evil ones among men and jinns, inspiring each other with flowery discourses by way of deception. If thy Lord had so planned, they would not have done it: so leave them and their inventions alone.

Does this following Ayat mean anything to you? 006.115 The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfilment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all.


To answer yours and the sisters Question. The prayer is clearly mentioned in the Qur'an, to bow and prostrate and when to do it. show me another way to bow except for the way we do it? show me another way to prostrate than the way we do it? ill be waiting... the bible says jesus, abraham fell on their faces and prayed! exactly as we do.

Now go to the books of hadith and show me a 'clear' way to pray? does it detail it exactly? ABSOLUTELY NOT it gives you an idea of how to do it and every book on hadith says to do it different. 'AND' every sect of Muslims does it differently, so tell me how do hadiths help? they dont! they do nothing but confuse.

if hadiths clearly showed the way to pray, then why do all Muslims pray differently?

And to prove my point BEYOND ANY DOUBT Even all of you now, Ahmad al hassan has had to correct your prayer, its totally different, so tell me how have hadiths helped you? if they were any good he wouldnt of needed to correct your prayer would he, it would already be ok. Dont you see the terrible logic in your arguments?

i have prayed alhamdulillah all over the Muslim world with people from all over the Muslim world and how ironic it is that the 'only things' they 'ALL' do exactly the same is what Allah said in the Quran - bow and prostrate and at the times they are mentioned!!! but all the parts they do differently are from where subhanAllah? THE HADITH.

have you read surah Baqarah? what is the wisdom behind the story of the jews and the cow they had to slaughter? Allah put that right at the beginning of the book for a reason, to warn us away from this very thing. Allah made the religion easy, men have made it hard exactly as the jews did, wake up, all the warnings are right there in the Quran. Allah needs no crutch, the Quran needs no explanation.


why is everyone running away from this hadith?

"Do not write anything from me except Quran. Anyone who wrote anything other than the Quran shall erase it." [Ahmed, Vol. 1, Page 171, and Sahih Moslim, Zuhd, Book 42, Number 7147] please answer it? you cant pick and choose which hadiths you believe and which you don't, what a pathetic religion is that? oh ill believe that hadith but not that...you know the other people that do that? the christians and jews. Get them into a corner and their answer every single time? "i dont believe in that bit". You want to be like them darleen?

The very book^^^^ that you follow tells you not to follow any of the book you are following :shock: :oops:

id love to hear an explanation of that^^^

And why does no one answer the question of why there is no mention in Qur'an of the Mahdi? the biggest of all? the end of the world as we know it, the main figure in all of this, but not a single mention when its the sunna of Allah to foretell every major figure in history??? all i ask is why? explain it to me...


ps..salam sister Norhan El Kirsh.. the only reason i didnt reply to your post is its too long, too much in one post to answer... if you still want to carry on the debate, please chop your post point by point and we will go through it all. Allah bless you!... and many of the brothers on here (and one sister) could learn something from the way you debate.
#61996
بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم


The only person who said "Allahs book is sufficient for us" was Omar ibn al-khattab.

Now where is the difference, between a person who misinterprets a quran vers for example Sure 20:5 "The Most Merciful [who is] above the Throne established." (and we know what the wahabis say about these verses)

and somebody who misinterprets or believes in wrong hadith?


Who is the one to blame? you want to give the fault to all the Hadith and to the script that islam is divided? so that the people are innocent?
even though it's the nafs of those people that leads them to misunderstanding because they don't complemented their mind that far?
what about those people who were not dissolving from their ego that far so that they don't understand because of their ignorance?
you want to tell me that if all muslims would throw away all the hadiths we would not have any sects anymore?

A person who has purified himself through knowledge and those manners that Allah swt loves, can't be misguided because of some hadith..

Sure 2:213 And none differed over the Scripture except those who were given it - after the clear proofs came to them - out of jealous animosity among themselves. And Allah guided those who believed to the truth concerning that over which they had differed, by His permission. And Allah guides whom He wills to a straight path.


ps. I was a christian too bro
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