The Epic Documentary Series from the Minds behind the Arrivals and the Antichrist Dajjal Series
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By Zolfigarr
#59681
The Quran says that "the Lord manifested at the mountain" so can we stab in the Quran and say this verse is wrong because the Lord can't manifest at the mountain or that would make the Lord be on earth and that is shirk? Allah swt spoke to Moses a.s. and how does Allah swt speak to people?

42:51
It is not fitting for a man that Allah should speak to him except by inspiration, or from behind a veil, or by the sending of a messenger to reveal, with Allah's permission, what Allah wills: for He is Most High, Most Wise.
User avatar
By Zolfigarr
#59682
Too many questions in one post. ill answer one by one but i dont have much time today, ill be back on tonight or tomorrow inshAllah.

1. Please stop playing with semantics. we all know what shirk means. To simplify for the layperson, if we associate anything with Allah or you say Allah is anything within this creation you have commited shirk, of course there are many forms and levels of shirk, so to ask me to define it here is impossible, as it takes a long discussion. the point is, you are saying the mahdi is Allah manifesting himself on earth, which is absolute shirk.

2. Hadiths. i personally find many hadiths very strange. i dont want to say any are false, im in no position, but i choose (as i am well within my right to) not accept them. we as muslims do not have to, in any way, accept any hadith. the only thing we are obligated to follow is the Quran.

3. Allah did manifest himself to the mountain, thats the whole point of the Ayat, if Allah manifested himself in a human, nothing that looked at him would survive.

“And when Moses arrived at Our appointed time and his Lord spoke to him, he said, ‘My Lord, show me (Yourself) that I may look at You.’ (God) said, ‘You will not see Me, but look at the mountain; if it should remain in place, then you will see Me.’ But when his Lord appeared to the mountain, He rendered it level, and Moses fell unconscious. And when he awoke, he said, ‘Exalted are You! I have repented to You, and I am the first of the believers.’” (Quran 7:143)

God made it clear that no-one, including the great prophet Moses, can bear the sight of the divine, for God is too great to be grasped by human eyes in this life.

nothing that is in this creation is Allah.

sorry brother ive ran out of time, we can continue this discussion later inshAllah.

Peace.


1. Prove that this saying is shirk with quran and hadeeths "the Mahdi a.s. is Allah swt manifesting himself among creation". And when did we say that Allah swt is within someone? Revise what I've posted and you will see that the manifestation that I've discussed about did not concern the aspect of incarnation which is shirk and kuffer and that is void in full and detail. Read Dua AlSimaat and its mentioned everywhere in the dua books of the Shia about the appearance of God and that means manifestation of Allah in creation, it has nothing to do with the Ultimate Divine in creation because its Kuffer but its the manifestation of the Ultimate Divine in creation, you need to separate these two elements or you will lag behind the understanding.

http://www.duas.org/simaat.htm

"and I beseech You through Your word, by which You overcame everything;
and I beseech You through the light of Your Face, which when it flased on Mount Sinai
crushed it to pieces whereby Moses fainted and fell down......

"and through Your appearance in Sa'ir and on Mount Faran near Rabawat, which are clean and holy places,"
So whose appearance was it in Sa'ir and Mount Faran?

Does God have two appearances in two different places? Or was it the manifestation of God in these two different places Jesus a.s. from Mount Sa'ir and Muhammad s.a.w.w from Mount Faran?

2. Only thing you are obligated to follow is Quran is incorrect, for the Prophet s.a.w.w clearly said that I left amongst you two weighty things, Quran and Ahlulabyt a.s. they will not be separated. So Ahlulbayt a.s. interpret the Quran and the hadeeths I've brought forth can be backed with scientific grading that they are not weak hadeeths and not fabrications at all.

3.You said:"Allah did manifest himself to the mountain, thats the whole point of the Ayat" we have nothing to disagree with here but how did he manifest? Since you admit that Allah swt has a manifestation brother the next step is to go to Ahlulbayt a.s. and see what they've said about it to get a full understanding and what I've presented above was an answer to such a question.
User avatar
By SlaveOfAllah
#59683
Zolfigarr wrote:
Too many questions in one post. ill answer one by one but i dont have much time today, ill be back on tonight or tomorrow inshAllah.

1. Please stop playing with semantics. we all know what shirk means. To simplify for the layperson, if we associate anything with Allah or you say Allah is anything within this creation you have commited shirk, of course there are many forms and levels of shirk, so to ask me to define it here is impossible, as it takes a long discussion. the point is, you are saying the mahdi is Allah manifesting himself on earth, which is absolute shirk.

2. Hadiths. i personally find many hadiths very strange. i dont want to say any are false, im in no position, but i choose (as i am well within my right to) not accept them. we as muslims do not have to, in any way, accept any hadith. the only thing we are obligated to follow is the Quran.

3. Allah did manifest himself to the mountain, thats the whole point of the Ayat, if Allah manifested himself in a human, nothing that looked at him would survive.

“And when Moses arrived at Our appointed time and his Lord spoke to him, he said, ‘My Lord, show me (Yourself) that I may look at You.’ (God) said, ‘You will not see Me, but look at the mountain; if it should remain in place, then you will see Me.’ But when his Lord appeared to the mountain, He rendered it level, and Moses fell unconscious. And when he awoke, he said, ‘Exalted are You! I have repented to You, and I am the first of the believers.’” (Quran 7:143)

God made it clear that no-one, including the great prophet Moses, can bear the sight of the divine, for God is too great to be grasped by human eyes in this life.

nothing that is in this creation is Allah.

sorry brother ive ran out of time, we can continue this discussion later inshAllah.

Peace.


1. Prove that this saying is shirk with quran and hadeeths "the Mahdi a.s. is Allah swt manifesting himself among creation". And when did we say that Allah swt is within someone? Revise what I've posted and you will see that the manifestation that I've discussed about did not concern the aspect of incarnation which is shirk and kuffer and that is void in full and detail. Read Dua AlSimaat and its mentioned everywhere in the dua books of the Shia about the appearance of God and that means manifestation of Allah in creation, it has nothing to do with the Ultimate Divine in creation because its Kuffer but its the manifestation of the Ultimate Divine in creation, you need to separate these two elements or you will lag behind the understanding.

http://www.duas.org/simaat.htm

"and I beseech You through Your word, by which You overcame everything;
and I beseech You through the light of Your Face, which when it flased on Mount Sinai
crushed it to pieces whereby Moses fainted and fell down......

"and through Your appearance in Sa'ir and on Mount Faran near Rabawat, which are clean and holy places,"
So whose appearance was it in Sa'ir and Mount Faran?

Does God have two appearances in two different places? Or was it the manifestation of God in these two different places Jesus a.s. from Mount Sa'ir and Muhammad s.a.w.w from Mount Faran?

2. Only thing you are obligated to follow is Quran is incorrect, for the Prophet s.a.w.w clearly said that I left amongst you two weighty things, Quran and Ahlulabyt a.s. they will not be separated. So Ahlulbayt a.s. interpret the Quran and the hadeeths I've brought forth can be backed with scientific grading that they are not weak hadeeths and not fabrications at all.

3.You said:"Allah did manifest himself to the mountain, thats the whole point of the Ayat" we have nothing to disagree with here but how did he manifest? Since you admit that Allah swt has a manifestation brother the next step is to go to Ahlulbayt a.s. and see what they've said about it to get a full understanding and what I've presented above was an answer to such a question.




1. Prove that this saying is shirk with quran and hadeeths "the Mahdi a.s. is Allah swt manifesting himself among creation".

“Surely Allah does not forgive that anything should be associated with him, and forgives what is besides that to whomsoever He pleases, and whoever associates anything with Allah, he devises indeed a great sin.” (Surah an-Nisā’ 4:48)

“Surely whoever associates (others) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden to him the garden, and his abode is the fire; and there shall be no helpers for the unjust.” (Surah al-Mā’ida 5:72)

“And whoever associates anything with Allah, he devises indeed a great sin.” (Surah an-Nisā’ 4:48)

“And worship Allah and do not associate anything with Him.” (Surah an-Nisā’ 4:36)

“Vision cannot grasp Him, but His Grasp is over all vision.” (Quran 6:103)

“And when Moses arrived at Our appointed time and his Lord spoke to him, he said, ‘My Lord, show me (Yourself) that I may look at You.’ (God) said, ‘You will not see Me, but look at the mountain; if it should remain in place, then you will see Me.’ But when his Lord appeared to the mountain, He rendered it level, and Moses fell unconscious. And when he awoke, he said, ‘Exalted are You! I have repented to You, and I am the first of the believers.’” (Quran 7:143)

042.051 It is not fitting for a man that God should speak to him except by inspiration, or from behind a veil, or by the sending of a messenger to reveal, with God's permission, what God wills: for He is Most High, Most Wise.

005.017 In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary (or those who say imam mahdi is Allah???). Say: "Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every - one that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things."

112.001 Say: He is God, the One and Only;
112.002 God, the Eternal, Absolute;
112.003 He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
112.004 And there is none like unto Him.

if you believe as you do, that Allah manifests himself in his creation, then the hindus and christians are all correct, because thats exactly what they believe!!!


And when did we say that Allah swt is within someone? Revise what I've posted and you will see that the manifestation that I've discussed about did not concern the aspect of incarnation which is shirk and kuffer and that is void in full and detail.
when you say Allah manifests himself as something you have committed shirk. when something manifests itself as something else, it takes on that form. if this is not what you mean then change your terminology. when you use the word manifestation in a religious sense you are saying Allah is taking the form of said thing or revealing himself as said thing, showing HIMSELF as said thing, if not then what do you mean (EXACTLY AND WITHOUT SEMANTICS) ... "a. One of the forms in which someone or something, such as a person, a divine being, or an idea, is revealed." what you are saying is Allah is revealing himself, showing himself as this mans creation.

Read Dua AlSimaat and its mentioned everywhere in the dua books of the Shia about the appearance of God and that means manifestation of Allah in creation, it has nothing to do with the Ultimate Divine in creation because its Kuffer but its the manifestation of the Ultimate Divine in creation, you need to separate these two elements or you will lag behind the understanding.
you are not making any sense now. either Allah is manifesting himself as imam mahdi or through imam mahdi a.s (acccording to you) or hes not. Allah is Allah use the definitions of Allah from Quran, that he GIVES HIMSELF and then show me the evidence for what you are claiming, or did Allah ta ala forget to reveal these things? hadiths as ive said contain fairy tales, conjecture, lies and corruption as even abdullas videos have proven many times over. if you want to know who or what Allah is then go to Allahs own description of himself. The Quran clearly states nothing in this creation can face Allah and survive, end of.


2. Only thing you are obligated to follow is Quran is incorrect, for the Prophet s.a.w.w clearly said that I left amongst you two weighty things, Quran and Ahlulabyt a.s. they will not be separated. So Ahlulbayt a.s. interpret the Quran and the hadeeths I've brought forth can be backed with scientific grading that they are not weak hadeeths and not fabrications at all.
I agree we must follow the two weighty things, Quran and Ahlulabyt a.s, The quran and rasulAllahs progeny (when they are among us), not man written hadith that have been corrupted beyond all belief, either by evil men, mistakes, war, error, misinterpretations, leaders twisting them for their own benefit etc etc etc. To claim "scientific grading" is frankly ludicrous when its plainly obvious "scientific grading" is not good enough where our eternal salvation is concerned. ONLY the QURAN is guarded, ONLY the quran is absolute proof, so to bring a hadith to prove hadiths importance is backwards. If you want to follow every hadith thats fine, i also follow some of them, but not EVER if they go against Quran in anyway. But i in no way am obliged to follow them and neither IMO is anyone else, following ahulbayt does not mean following words written down by men, it means follow them when they are among you

3.You said:"Allah did manifest himself to the mountain, thats the whole point of the Ayat" we have nothing to disagree with here but how did he manifest? Since you admit that Allah swt has a manifestation brother the next step is to go to Ahlulbayt a.s. and see what they've said about it to get a full understanding and what I've presented above was an answer to such a question.
you are trying to use this ayat in defence of your view but in fact this is the ultimate proof you are wrong. you are not understanding that Allah revealed himself revealed/showed himself to the mountain and because nothing in this creation can take the infinite power of Allah it was obliterated, so if Allah manisfested HIMSELF in a man it would be destroyed and so would ANYTHING THAT LOOKED AT OR FACED IT. This is absolute proof revealed by Allah to refute these claims that you are making, there is no better way for allah to disprove your view than this ayat, and i cant believe you cant see that, its as clear as day. Allah is saying to you clearly here that it is impossible for him to manifest himself in this creation either to a mountain or a man, the Quran is always right and always infinitely above any man written hadith. The Quran trumps ALL if the great moses himself couldnt see Allah and the mountain itself was obliterated at the manifestation of Allah, this is your absolute undeniable evidence that Alllah will not manifest himself in a part of creation. if he ever would he would of done so for Musa A.S, if you want to take hadiths over this clear evidence from Quran thats your choice brother "la ikraha fi din", i choose not to do that and i advise you against it.



Peace my brother.
User avatar
By Zolfigarr
#59684
La hawla wala quwata ila bila:

1. Prove that this saying is shirk with quran and hadeeths "the Mahdi a.s. is Allah swt manifesting himself among creation".



“Surely Allah does not forgive that anything should be associated with him, and forgives what is besides that to whomsoever He pleases, and whoever associates anything with Allah, he devises indeed a great sin.” (Surah an-Nisā’ 4:48)

Mahdi is a manifestation of Allah swt among creation, how is that shirk? How is that associating with Allah when we don't believe that Allah swt is divisible or an embodiment? Also for the rest of these verses:

“Surely whoever associates (others) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden to him the garden, and his abode is the fire; and there shall be no helpers for the unjust.” (Surah al-Mā’ida 5:72)

“And whoever associates anything with Allah, he devises indeed a great sin.” (Surah an-Nisā’ 4:48)

We worship the essence of Allah and not the manifestation of Allah, and Marifa is the inability to know Him.

“And worship Allah and do not associate anything with Him.” (Surah an-Nisā’ 4:36)

No one can grasp the essence(Kunha) and Haqeeqa(reality):

“Vision cannot grasp Him, but His Grasp is over all vision.” (Quran 6:103)

“And when Moses arrived at Our appointed time and his Lord spoke to him, he said, ‘My Lord, show me (Yourself) that I may look at You.’ (God) said, ‘You will not see Me, but look at the mountain; if it should remain in place, then you will see Me.’ But when his Lord appeared to the mountain, He rendered it level, and Moses fell unconscious. And when he awoke, he said, ‘Exalted are You! I have repented to You, and I am the first of the believers.’” (Quran 7:143)

Explain what I've underlined. Moses a.s. did not die and did not get destroyed when He saw Allah swt. According to what you said if someone sees Allah swt He will die and this verse says "YOU WILL SEE ME" the Quran said he fell unconscious, so who did he see?!

This verse doesn't prove that what I've said is shirk
042.051 It is not fitting for a man that God should speak to him except by inspiration, or from behind a veil, or by the sending of a messenger to reveal, with God's permission, what God wills: for He is Most High, Most Wise.

005.017 In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary (or those who say imam mahdi is Allah???). Say: "Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every - one that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things."

When did we say Imam AlMahdi is Allah??!! La hawla wala quwata ila bilah, didn't we say that saying the Mahdi being Allah in creation or that he is the manifestation of Allah is not shirk and saying that the Mahdi is Allah is shirk and Kuffer?

112.001 Say: He is God, the One and Only;
112.002 God, the Eternal, Absolute;
112.003 He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
112.004 And there is none like unto Him.


if you believe as you do, that Allah manifests himself in his creation, then the hindus and christians are all correct, because thats exactly what they believe!!!

I think what I've said in my previous post entered one of your ears and exited out your other ear brother or there is a serious misunderstanding.

Christians and Hindus believe in incarnation and we don't, so why are you always forcing this argument time and again? We believe that Muhammad s.a.w.w is the image of God and the manifestation of Allah among creation or Allah among creation. We don't believe in incarnation of God because its Kuffer, the Ultimate Divine which is Huwa does not materialize, it is light without a defect of darkness.


when you say Allah manifests himself as something you have committed shirk.
Subhanallah, read the Quran that you quoted yourself "but look at the mountain; if it should remain in place, then you will see Me but when his Lord appeared to the mountain" So there is no manifestation of Allah swt in creation at the mountain?
when something manifests itself as something else, it takes on that form. if this is not what you mean then change your terminology. when you use the word manifestation in a religious sense you are saying Allah is taking the form of said thing or revealing himself as said thing, showing HIMSELF as said thing, if not then what do you mean (EXACTLY AND WITHOUT SEMANTICS) ... "a. One of the forms in which someone or something, such as a person, a divine being, or an idea, is revealed." what you are saying is Allah is revealing himself, showing himself as this mans creation.

Allah swt is not divisible, and He is infinitely pre-existent. Allah swt is the First without anyone before Him, He is the Last without anyone after Him. He is Light without darkness, knowledge without ignorance Life without death. He is not an embodiment and there is nothing that can resemble Him. Can there be a manifestation of Allah swt? Yes, the Quran proves that Allah swt appeared and this appearance is not the the Essence of Allah swt, rather it was the manifestation of the Essence and the two are not the same. When we say that Ali Al Akbar is a manifestation of Muhammad s.a.w.w does that mean Ali AlAkbar is the essence of Muhammad s.a.w.w? If that were the case we would have made Ali AlAkbar a Prophet and have crossed the red line. So with this example in mind also in Tawheed you cannot cross or transgress and you have to set the limits. According to the Tawheed of Imam Ahmed AlHasan a.s. we differentiated between the Essence of Allah swt(Huwa) and Allah among creation or the manifestation of Allah which is not meant to be the Essence(Kunh).


I agree we must follow the two weighty things, Quran and Ahlulabyt a.s, The quran and rasulAllahs progeny (when they are among us), not man written hadith that have been corrupted beyond all belief, either by evil men, mistakes, war, error, misinterpretations, leaders twisting them for their own benefit etc etc etc. To claim "scientific grading" is frankly ludicrous when its plainly obvious "scientific grading" is not good enough where our eternal salvation is concerned. ONLY the QURAN is guarded, ONLY the quran is absolute proof, so to bring a hadith to prove hadiths importance is backwards. If you want to follow every hadith thats fine, i also follow some of them, but not EVER if they go against Quran in anyway. But i in no way am obliged to follow them and neither IMO is anyone else, following ahulbayt does not mean following words written down by men, it means follow them when they are among you

Any hadeeth that you say is corrupted must be proven that is corrupt by Quran and hadeeth. If you follow the Quran and say all hadeeths are subject to alteration then you have nothing left of your religion. The detail of Haj,Wilaya(pillar of the Shia creed),Imams, Karbala, Hussain's martydom and everything in history is in hadeeths. How the Prophet prayed, the units of prayers etc. And then you said:"so to bring a hadith to prove hadiths importance is backwards. " how is it backwards? Is it because it refutes what's in your mind? Since when was an Aqeeda based only on Quran without Ahlulbayt's hadeeths? Are you implying that you follow Ahlulbayt just by youtube and through wikipedia? Brother, there is a heritage from Ahlulbayt a.s. in the hadeeths if you claim that this is backwards then why did the Imams encourage their companions to write hadeeths? Isn't it to preserve their heritage or is religion just a game?


you are trying to use this ayat in defence of your view but in fact this is the ultimate proof you are wrong. you are not understanding that Allah revealed himself revealed/showed himself to the mountain and because nothing in this creation can take the infinite power of Allah it was obliterated, so if Allah manisfested HIMSELF in a man it would be destroyed and so would ANYTHING THAT LOOKED AT OR FACED IT.

Explain your understanding of Allah manifesting himself in a man because maybe you are thinking that Allah is leaving his Kingdom and then minimizing himself in a man or something along the lines of that which is blasphemous, in which the ansars don't believe in. Look in the previous posts how we described the manifestation according to Dua AlSimaat.

{Do they wait until Allah comes to them in shadows of clouds and the angels, and the matter has been ordained, And to Allah [all] matters are returned} [Surah Al-Baqarah 2:210]

Can you tell me what it means in this verse that Allah comes to them in shadows of clouds?

Imam Ali pbuh said: I am what Allah said: {Do they wait until Allah comes to them in shadows of clouds and the angels, and the matter has been ordained, And to Allah [all] matters are returned} – Tafsir Furat Al-Kufi: page 67


And that is because Imam Ali a.s. is a manifestation of the Essence of Allah among creation and he is not the Essence. Saying Ali Huwa Allah is Kuffer saying Ali Huwa Allah fil khalq(in creation) is not Kuffer because Ali is an image of God because Adam was created also by the image of God.

And he (PBUH & his Family) said: (Allah created Adam upon his image)
v.1 p.134 Kafi



This is absolute proof revealed by Allah to refute these claims that you are making, there is no better way for allah to disprove your view than this ayat, and i cant believe you cant see that, its as clear as day. Allah is saying to you clearly here that it is impossible for him to manifest himself in this creation either to a mountain or a man, the Quran is always right and always infinitely above any man written hadith.

Imam Ali pbuh said:"He is within the things not that he is mixed with them and he is out of the things not that he is removed from them"-Nahj AlBalagha



The Quran trumps ALL if the great moses himself couldnt see Allah and the mountain itself was obliterated at the manifestation of Allah, this is your absolute undeniable evidence that Alllah will not manifest himself in a part of creation. if he ever would he would of done so for Musa A.S, if you want to take hadiths over this clear evidence from Quran thats your choice brother "la ikraha fi din", i choose not to do that and i advise you against it.

You keep on mentioning manifestation of Allah yet you keep on saying that this is shirk and I made it clear that there is no Allah in someone or the concept of incarnation because there is a manifestation of Allah swt.

"if it should remain in place, then you will see Me." there is a manifestation of Allah swt that Moses saw and that was the light of Muhammad s.a.w.w. Allah swt said:"YOU WILL SEE ME" so there is an appearance of Allah in creation and that is the manifestation of Allah.

Read the Quran for Allah swt said that he set forth an example of His light "the resemblance of His light is a niche"Surat AlNoor مثل نوره كمشكاة so is this shirk because there is light resembling Him now ?

I advise you to read the book of Tawheed brother because in that book the meaning of shirk and kuffer and tajseem/anthropomorphism is clearly pointed out to be wrong and the Imam drew the lines as to where this occurs. Feel free to read it up, that way you can discuss with an understanding and not with only opinions and conjectures.

Salam.
User avatar
By SlaveOfAllah
#59685
The Quran trumps ALL if the great moses himself couldnt see Allah and the mountain itself was obliterated at the manifestation of Allah, this is your absolute undeniable evidence that Alllah will not manifest himself in a part of creation. if he ever would he would of done so for Musa A.S, if you want to take hadiths over this clear evidence from Quran thats your choice brother "la ikraha fi din", i choose not to do that and i advise you against it.

You keep on mentioning manifestation of Allah yet you keep on saying that this is shirk and I made it clear that there is no Allah in someone or the concept of incarnation because there is a manifestation of Allah swt.

"if it should remain in place, then you will see Me." there is a manifestation of Allah swt that Moses saw and that was the light of Muhammad s.a.w.w. Allah swt said:"YOU WILL SEE ME" so there is an appearance of Allah in creation and that is the manifestation of Allah.

Read the Quran for Allah swt said that he set forth an example of His light "the resemblance of His light is a niche"Surat AlNoor مثل نوره كمشكاة so is this shirk because there is light resembling Him now ?

I advise you to read the book of Tawheed brother because in that book the meaning of shirk and kuffer and tajseem/anthropomorphism is clearly pointed out to be wrong and the Imam drew the lines as to where this occurs. Feel free to read it up, that way you can discuss with an understanding and not with only opinions and conjectures.

Salam.

salam,

one at a time bro as im very pushed for time today.

In answer to the above. you have totally misunderstood the ayat. Moses 'didnt' see the manifestation of Allah to the mountain, he 'only' saw the mountain as it was obliterated by Allahs manifestation. This is a very basic understanding that you have failed to grasp brother, and its lead to your other errant views. the whole point of the ayat is Allah was showing Moses (because he asked) that NO ONE AND NOTHING can see Allah's manifestation of HIMSELF in this world. Moses a.s. was knocked out by the sight of the mountain being destroyed not seeing Allah, "if it should remain in place, then you will see Me." obviously it DIDNT remain in place so moses DIDNT see Allah, because if Moses had of seen Allah then he would also have been destroyed, thats the whole point. so this proves that imam mahdi a.s cannot be a manifestation of Allah, because nothing can be in this world.

007.143 When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said: "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee." God said: "By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me." When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust.

"and Allah knows all and i know nothing. Please Allah subhanawatala forgive me and my brother for any mistakes we make, they are all made in good intention inshAllah"

Salam bro,
User avatar
By SlaveOfAllah
#59688
Zolfigarr wrote:La hawla wala quwata ila bila:

1. Prove that this saying is shirk with quran and hadeeths "the Mahdi a.s. is Allah swt manifesting himself among creation".



“Surely Allah does not forgive that anything should be associated with him, and forgives what is besides that to whomsoever He pleases, and whoever associates anything with Allah, he devises indeed a great sin.” (Surah an-Nisā’ 4:48)

Mahdi is a manifestation of Allah swt among creation, how is that shirk? How is that associating with Allah when we don't believe that Allah swt is divisible or an embodiment? Also for the rest of these verses:

“Surely whoever associates (others) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden to him the garden, and his abode is the fire; and there shall be no helpers for the unjust.” (Surah al-Mā’ida 5:72)

“And whoever associates anything with Allah, he devises indeed a great sin.” (Surah an-Nisā’ 4:48)

We worship the essence of Allah and not the manifestation of Allah, and Marifa is the inability to know Him.

“And worship Allah and do not associate anything with Him.” (Surah an-Nisā’ 4:36)

No one can grasp the essence(Kunha) and Haqeeqa(reality):

“Vision cannot grasp Him, but His Grasp is over all vision.” (Quran 6:103)

“And when Moses arrived at Our appointed time and his Lord spoke to him, he said, ‘My Lord, show me (Yourself) that I may look at You.’ (God) said, ‘You will not see Me, but look at the mountain; if it should remain in place, then you will see Me.’ But when his Lord appeared to the mountain, He rendered it level, and Moses fell unconscious. And when he awoke, he said, ‘Exalted are You! I have repented to You, and I am the first of the believers.’” (Quran 7:143)

Explain what I've underlined. Moses a.s. did not die and did not get destroyed when He saw Allah swt. According to what you said if someone sees Allah swt He will die and this verse says "YOU WILL SEE ME" the Quran said he fell unconscious, so who did he see?!

This verse doesn't prove that what I've said is shirk
042.051 It is not fitting for a man that God should speak to him except by inspiration, or from behind a veil, or by the sending of a messenger to reveal, with God's permission, what God wills: for He is Most High, Most Wise.

005.017 In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary (or those who say imam mahdi is Allah???). Say: "Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every - one that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things."

When did we say Imam AlMahdi is Allah??!! La hawla wala quwata ila bilah, didn't we say that saying the Mahdi being Allah in creation or that he is the manifestation of Allah is not shirk and saying that the Mahdi is Allah is shirk and Kuffer?

112.001 Say: He is God, the One and Only;
112.002 God, the Eternal, Absolute;
112.003 He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
112.004 And there is none like unto Him.


if you believe as you do, that Allah manifests himself in his creation, then the hindus and christians are all correct, because thats exactly what they believe!!!

I think what I've said in my previous post entered one of your ears and exited out your other ear brother or there is a serious misunderstanding.

Christians and Hindus believe in incarnation and we don't, so why are you always forcing this argument time and again? We believe that Muhammad s.a.w.w is the image of God and the manifestation of Allah among creation or Allah among creation. We don't believe in incarnation of God because its Kuffer, the Ultimate Divine which is Huwa does not materialize, it is light without a defect of darkness.


when you say Allah manifests himself as something you have committed shirk.
Subhanallah, read the Quran that you quoted yourself "but look at the mountain; if it should remain in place, then you will see Me but when his Lord appeared to the mountain" So there is no manifestation of Allah swt in creation at the mountain?
when something manifests itself as something else, it takes on that form. if this is not what you mean then change your terminology. when you use the word manifestation in a religious sense you are saying Allah is taking the form of said thing or revealing himself as said thing, showing HIMSELF as said thing, if not then what do you mean (EXACTLY AND WITHOUT SEMANTICS) ... "a. One of the forms in which someone or something, such as a person, a divine being, or an idea, is revealed." what you are saying is Allah is revealing himself, showing himself as this mans creation.

Allah swt is not divisible, and He is infinitely pre-existent. Allah swt is the First without anyone before Him, He is the Last without anyone after Him. He is Light without darkness, knowledge without ignorance Life without death. He is not an embodiment and there is nothing that can resemble Him. Can there be a manifestation of Allah swt? Yes, the Quran proves that Allah swt appeared and this appearance is not the the Essence of Allah swt, rather it was the manifestation of the Essence and the two are not the same. When we say that Ali Al Akbar is a manifestation of Muhammad s.a.w.w does that mean Ali AlAkbar is the essence of Muhammad s.a.w.w? If that were the case we would have made Ali AlAkbar a Prophet and have crossed the red line. So with this example in mind also in Tawheed you cannot cross or transgress and you have to set the limits. According to the Tawheed of Imam Ahmed AlHasan a.s. we differentiated between the Essence of Allah swt(Huwa) and Allah among creation or the manifestation of Allah which is not meant to be the Essence(Kunh).


I agree we must follow the two weighty things, Quran and Ahlulabyt a.s, The quran and rasulAllahs progeny (when they are among us), not man written hadith that have been corrupted beyond all belief, either by evil men, mistakes, war, error, misinterpretations, leaders twisting them for their own benefit etc etc etc. To claim "scientific grading" is frankly ludicrous when its plainly obvious "scientific grading" is not good enough where our eternal salvation is concerned. ONLY the QURAN is guarded, ONLY the quran is absolute proof, so to bring a hadith to prove hadiths importance is backwards. If you want to follow every hadith thats fine, i also follow some of them, but not EVER if they go against Quran in anyway. But i in no way am obliged to follow them and neither IMO is anyone else, following ahulbayt does not mean following words written down by men, it means follow them when they are among you

Any hadeeth that you say is corrupted must be proven that is corrupt by Quran and hadeeth. If you follow the Quran and say all hadeeths are subject to alteration then you have nothing left of your religion. The detail of Haj,Wilaya(pillar of the Shia creed),Imams, Karbala, Hussain's martydom and everything in history is in hadeeths. How the Prophet prayed, the units of prayers etc. And then you said:"so to bring a hadith to prove hadiths importance is backwards. " how is it backwards? Is it because it refutes what's in your mind? Since when was an Aqeeda based only on Quran without Ahlulbayt's hadeeths? Are you implying that you follow Ahlulbayt just by youtube and through wikipedia? Brother, there is a heritage from Ahlulbayt a.s. in the hadeeths if you claim that this is backwards then why did the Imams encourage their companions to write hadeeths? Isn't it to preserve their heritage or is religion just a game?


you are trying to use this ayat in defence of your view but in fact this is the ultimate proof you are wrong. you are not understanding that Allah revealed himself revealed/showed himself to the mountain and because nothing in this creation can take the infinite power of Allah it was obliterated, so if Allah manisfested HIMSELF in a man it would be destroyed and so would ANYTHING THAT LOOKED AT OR FACED IT.

Explain your understanding of Allah manifesting himself in a man because maybe you are thinking that Allah is leaving his Kingdom and then minimizing himself in a man or something along the lines of that which is blasphemous, in which the ansars don't believe in. Look in the previous posts how we described the manifestation according to Dua AlSimaat.

{Do they wait until Allah comes to them in shadows of clouds and the angels, and the matter has been ordained, And to Allah [all] matters are returned} [Surah Al-Baqarah 2:210]

Can you tell me what it means in this verse that Allah comes to them in shadows of clouds?

Imam Ali pbuh said: I am what Allah said: {Do they wait until Allah comes to them in shadows of clouds and the angels, and the matter has been ordained, And to Allah [all] matters are returned} – Tafsir Furat Al-Kufi: page 67


And that is because Imam Ali a.s. is a manifestation of the Essence of Allah among creation and he is not the Essence. Saying Ali Huwa Allah is Kuffer saying Ali Huwa Allah fil khalq(in creation) is not Kuffer because Ali is an image of God because Adam was created also by the image of God.

And he (PBUH & his Family) said: (Allah created Adam upon his image)
v.1 p.134 Kafi



This is absolute proof revealed by Allah to refute these claims that you are making, there is no better way for allah to disprove your view than this ayat, and i cant believe you cant see that, its as clear as day. Allah is saying to you clearly here that it is impossible for him to manifest himself in this creation either to a mountain or a man, the Quran is always right and always infinitely above any man written hadith.

Imam Ali pbuh said:"He is within the things not that he is mixed with them and he is out of the things not that he is removed from them"-Nahj AlBalagha



The Quran trumps ALL if the great moses himself couldnt see Allah and the mountain itself was obliterated at the manifestation of Allah, this is your absolute undeniable evidence that Alllah will not manifest himself in a part of creation. if he ever would he would of done so for Musa A.S, if you want to take hadiths over this clear evidence from Quran thats your choice brother "la ikraha fi din", i choose not to do that and i advise you against it.

You keep on mentioning manifestation of Allah yet you keep on saying that this is shirk and I made it clear that there is no Allah in someone or the concept of incarnation because there is a manifestation of Allah swt.

"if it should remain in place, then you will see Me." there is a manifestation of Allah swt that Moses saw and that was the light of Muhammad s.a.w.w. Allah swt said:"YOU WILL SEE ME" so there is an appearance of Allah in creation and that is the manifestation of Allah.

Read the Quran for Allah swt said that he set forth an example of His light "the resemblance of His light is a niche"Surat AlNoor مثل نوره كمشكاة so is this shirk because there is light resembling Him now ?

I advise you to read the book of Tawheed brother because in that book the meaning of shirk and kuffer and tajseem/anthropomorphism is clearly pointed out to be wrong and the Imam drew the lines as to where this occurs. Feel free to read it up, that way you can discuss with an understanding and not with only opinions and conjectures.

Salam.


The Quran trumps ALL if the great moses himself couldnt see Allah and the mountain itself was obliterated at the manifestation of Allah, this is your absolute undeniable evidence that Alllah will not manifest himself in a part of creation. if he ever would he would of done so for Musa A.S, if you want to take hadiths over this clear evidence from Quran thats your choice brother "la ikraha fi din", i choose not to do that and i advise you against it.

You keep on mentioning manifestation of Allah yet you keep on saying that this is shirk and I made it clear that there is no Allah in someone or the concept of incarnation because there is a manifestation of Allah swt.

"if it should remain in place, then you will see Me." there is a manifestation of Allah swt that Moses saw and that was the light of Muhammad s.a.w.w. Allah swt said:"YOU WILL SEE ME" so there is an appearance of Allah in creation and that is the manifestation of Allah.

Read the Quran for Allah swt said that he set forth an example of His light "the resemblance of His light is a niche"Surat AlNoor مثل نوره كمشكاة so is this shirk because there is light resembling Him now ?

I advise you to read the book of Tawheed brother because in that book the meaning of shirk and kuffer and tajseem/anthropomorphism is clearly pointed out to be wrong and the Imam drew the lines as to where this occurs. Feel free to read it up, that way you can discuss with an understanding and not with only opinions and conjectures.

Salam.



(reposting as a direct response)

salam,

one at a time bro as im very pushed for time today.

In answer to the above. you have totally misunderstood the ayat. Moses 'didnt' see the manifestation of Allah to the mountain, he 'only' saw the mountain as it was obliterated by Allahs manifestation. This is a very basic understanding that you have failed to grasp brother, and its lead to your other errant views. the whole point of the ayat is Allah was showing Moses (because he asked) that NO ONE AND NOTHING can see Allah's manifestation of HIMSELF in this world. Moses a.s. was knocked out by the sight of the mountain being destroyed not seeing Allah, "if it should remain in place, then you will see Me." obviously it DIDNT remain in place so moses DIDNT see Allah, because if Moses had of seen Allah then he would also have been destroyed, thats the whole point. so this proves that imam mahdi a.s cannot be a manifestation of Allah, because nothing can be in this world.

007.143 When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said: "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee." God said: "By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me." When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust.

"and Allah knows all and i know nothing. Please Allah subhanawatala forgive me and my brother for any mistakes we make, they are all made in good intention inshAllah"

Salam bro,
User avatar
By balkan
#59692
Selam to all....

I must first say that this movie I could not see because it looks deleted from the net .
but I want to comment this discussion :


Manifestation of Allah :

- Everything Imam as. do or not do , says or does not say , while walking, eating , sleeping , talking , keep quiet ... the whole time he is in this world , a complete period of his stay in this world between birth and death, is all one single indivisible and indissoluble entity that is a manifestation of Allah .. ( see Kumayl prayer where it says at the end : that all my actions and all my Vird , becoming one Vird - I do not know exactly in Arabic , but I think you can find this part .. )

The manifestation of Allah in this creation , of course !!!!!!

and therein lies the point ... Everything that is created at all times of existence , has been created for the love of Ahlul Bayt as.!!!!

So, it is in "the eyes" of this world, in our eyes, and all the creatures that are created ..... that Ahlul Bayt is a manifestation of Allah, and everything belongs to them, including our lives, they own us, they have more right upon us the we have, and we must obey. And we are actually obliged to observe them so .

 What is from the Ahlul Bayta , it is from Allah .

What is not from Ahlul Bayta , it " is not from Allah " ( hope you understand , that it is ALL from Allah , but what is not from Ahlul Bayta , is in fact from Iblis or from our nefs and ignorance )

the whole creation makes prostrate to Allah through obedience to the Imam, except for some people and yin.

whole creation listen to the master, except for some people and yin.

and therefore the whole creation in Islam, in obedience to Allah, except for some people and yin.

Imam as is a manifestation of Allah's will and words of his book, a perfect reflection of the Prophet Muhammad saws. He is the law of Allah on earth. !!!

No one is above the Imam as, not a day man and no politics, opinion or what ever ... above him there is nothing ... except La ilaha Ilallah, Muhammadun Rasul-Allah.

Because he was vicar of God in creation, and manifestation of his attributes and his holy names in this creation. Manifestation of the Almighty Creator is reflected in the fact that it is known to him all the names of God, all 99 names and again that hidden name, which is currently known only to him. (Despite the fact that we live at the time of opening the remaining 25 pieces of knowledge, our humble mind is not able to withstand the weight of that knowledge, of that Irfan).

everything that God created, created according to the "model" Ahlul Bayta, perfect humans, just for them. And all living things were created for them, so they were at the service, and only in their service.

Imam as is a manifestation of knowledge of the Koran, without any error. He is a manifestation of God's word, and God's book The Qoran by which "measure" God created the entire creation. So in creation, there is nothing hidden from him and everything is presented to him.

manifestation of Allah means he is God's eye, the mouth of God, God's voice, God's will. Master of the faithful, the link with the Prophet Muhammad. and there is no possibility that anyone of the people or yin or some ego, breaks this link.

Imam as is a perfect reflection of the Prophet Muhammad, and therefore a perfect reflection of the Almighty Creator.

do not think, understand it ...!!

blessings on Muhammad saws and his noble family, all Imams and all Mahdis as.

(P.S. Some people seem to want to live in the dark, is it ...?? )
Y- Yamani et Yawmiates (Mémoires).

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