Here all resources pertaining to the Yamani will be posted
User avatar
By Muin
#33270
... Not to be antagonistic, but I just have some food for thought...

Just to make my intentions clear: I'm not a Shia, and I'm not inclined to accept Shia Belief, I'm a Sunni... BUT, I do consider evryone that says Kalimah Tayyiba Muslim and thus - my brothers and sisters. I'm not coming hear to attack Shia's - there's no good in that. I've followed TADS from the very first episode until now, and I've kept my mind open. My aim is not to speak about differences between the sects - this is about Imam Al-Hassan. Here are just some thoughts:

The world is DESPERATE for a saviour - you can see that everywhere and in every person. If it's not Eesa (AS), then it's Imam Mahdi otherwise it's dajjal... When people are desperate, they can be fooled (I'm not saying anyone is a fool or that anyone is fooled - its just a universal fact). Now considering this whole Imam Al-Hassan thing here are a few points (maybe Brother Abdullah can clear it up if he thinks it matters. But it's REALLY not a challenge - Wallahi I'm being sincere in my intentions - and I have no hidden agenda; I am, like everybody else, only seeking Allah...):

:arrow: I haven't been certain about this whole Yamani thing, and ever since, I've been wondering what stance to take, but here are a few points which pushed me away from him:

- Never can a non-prophet be better than a Prophet. It's not possible, the Prophet has Wahy, Divine Aid, His companion is Jibra'eel and He can see and understand the most intricate and hidden things - how can he and someone (even though he might be of the descendats of the Prophet S.A.W) be equal? Allah boasts about Eesa (A.S) in the Qur'an, the Prophet S.A.W also speaks so highly of Eesa (A.S)... Such honour, and what a place Eesa (a.s) has been given - and now you have Imam Ahmed Al-Hassan that says Eesa (a.s) could not bear being crucified - so Imam Hassan, in a previous incarnate, was crucified for Him (a.s)... It's strange! How can I accept that? It goes against everything I know, and not one iota of me can even think to accept it...

- Every deceiver has been a good talker. every single one of them have been able to move people's hearts with their tongue. My point is that words and lectures that are not based on known facts are not sufficient as evidence. The heart of a believer is a receptacle of Ilham (inspiration) from Allah but that Ilham cannot be used for affairs of sharee'ah, that is for the person to get closer to Allah - it is only applicable in personal matters. It's not all about how your heart is moved and it's not all about what moves your heart. It's about facts and Haqq - which is discernable by use of intellect and not palpitations of the heart.

- The first step is to get people's trust. Once your followers stop doubting you, you can tell them to kill themselves for you and they will do it (as we have seen before in a previous false prophet's story). This is an obvious thing. Now in the beginning everything about Imam Al-Hassan was wonderful - he was bringing out falsehood and corruption, he was spreading truth. He was bringing out secrets that we learnt of through TADS. Now that many people have trusted him, and have been convinced of him 100% - he is starting to change what all of you knew of basic things. He is changing the way you read salaah (with 7 takbirs :?: ) he is changing your fiqh and not many people will question - because they trust him. Doesn't that seem like people are being misguided?

- The nafs are strange, when it learns something secretive; which many people do not know, it gets cocky and thinks it knows it all and that is it invincible. It thinks that it is always right, and only follows what it feels is right - and with shaytaan there to beautify our actions, things only become more acceptable to the nafs' owner. And when someone with a different perspective comes along, no-one even considers his words.

- If dajjal (who has a Ph.D in deception) is to misguide the Muslims - who would of course be the cream of the crop - how would he do it? There is no doubt that he will try to confuse us, and everyone on this forum knows that. What we need to ask ourselves is: what would be his strategy? If Imam Mahdi is a Veil for Allah, then what happens if we accept the wrong person to be Imam Mahdi?

My intention is not to attack, or argue with anybody - how can a person be an opponent to a people for whom he only wants the best? I'm not trying to show off sincerity to move your hearts, but it's so that you actually give my words some honest thought and reflection. I desire nothing from nobody, and I desire to enter my grave, although I will never ask for it. These are my opinions - based on fact and logic, and we are travellers on the same road, so how can I not lend my fellow travellers a hand?

Like I said, I'm Sunni - but don't let that make you bias toward my words. Take what you understand to be the truth from it and reject what you think to be false. We are all going to be questioned by Allah, and I had to share this so that there is no responsibilty on my shoulders in front of Allah on that day.

I'm not saying I'm right, I could very well be wrong. But it's just something to think about. I'm not attacking or belying Imam Ahmad Al-Hassan, I could be very wrong and we constantly hope and ask for Allah's guidance.

P.S. If you are reading this then Subhanallah, walhamdulillah that your mind is not jelly and that you have the ability to read more than a few lines at a time :)

Wassalamualiakum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu.
User avatar
By HussainTheShortcomer
#33274
Salam,

Thank you for posting these in a list, I will try to cover some points that clarify your doubts.

Muin wrote:...
- Never can a non-prophet be better than a Prophet. It's not possible, the Prophet has Wahy, Divine Aid, His companion is Jibra'eel and He can see and understand the most intricate and hidden things - how can he and someone (even though he might be of the descendats of the Prophet S.A.W) be equal? Allah boasts about Eesa (A.S) in the Qur'an, the Prophet S.A.W also speaks so highly of Eesa (A.S)... Such honour, and what a place Eesa (a.s) has been given - and now you have Imam Ahmed Al-Hassan that says Eesa (a.s) could not bear being crucified - so Imam Hassan, in a previous incarnate, was crucified for Him (a.s)... It's strange! How can I accept that? It goes against everything I know, and not one iota of me can even think to accept it...

This is easy to answer. Muhammad(pbuhahf) says: Ali is from me and I am from Ali. He has also said: I am the City of Knowledge, and Ali is the Door to that City of Knowledge.
This simply means Ali(a.s) was very close to the rank of Muhammad(pbuhahf), and because Muhammad was the best of all prophets(a.s), it makes sense that Ali(a.s) is better than all/most of those Prophets(a.s).
Please contemplate on Ali(a.s) and his vast amount of knowledge of religion and Quran and how he is the best person to tell people what to do (halaal and haram) after the death of Muhammad(pbuhahf). In other words, he was the only person appointed by God to rule the Ummah but had this taken away from him unjustly. This you can't walk away from easily.

Muin wrote: - Every deceiver has been a good talker. every single one of them have been able to move people's hearts with their tongue. My point is that words and lectures that are not based on known facts are not sufficient as evidence. The heart of a believer is a receptacle of Ilham (inspiration) from Allah but that Ilham cannot be used for affairs of sharee'ah, that is for the person to get closer to Allah - it is only applicable in personal matters. It's not all about how your heart is moved and it's not all about what moves your heart. It's about facts and Haqq - which is discernable by use of intellect and not palpitations of the heart.

The deceiver can only go so far without popping up with contracdictions and falsehoods, research is the tool to truth.
[..., for contemplation is the heartbeat of the discerning as walks the enlightened in the darkness
following the light. So get rid well of the falsehood and dwell less on whatever is suspicious (Al-Kafi, vol. 2, p. 599.)]

Muin wrote: - The first step is to get people's trust. Once your followers stop doubting you, you can tell them to kill themselves for you and they will do it (as we have seen before in a previous false prophet's story). This is an obvious thing. Now in the beginning everything about Imam Al-Hassan was wonderful - he was bringing out falsehood and corruption, he was spreading truth. He was bringing out secrets that we learnt of through TADS. Now that many people have trusted him, and have been convinced of him 100% - he is starting to change what all of you knew of basic things. He is changing the way you read salaah (with 7 takbirs :?: ) he is changing your fiqh and not many people will question - because they trust him. Doesn't that seem like people are being misguided?

7 takbir is similar to killing yourself? Where is the reason behind this comparison. Reaching the seventh sky with the 7 takbir, as advised by an honest person who calls you to God Almighty and Imam Mahdi(a.s)? Please pick up a fault from Ahmad Al-Hasan, only then can you suggest "tell them to kill themselves". Right now it is without any proof/evidence.

Muin wrote: - The nafs are strange, when it learns something secretive; which many people do not know, it gets cocky and thinks it knows it all and that is it invincible. It thinks that it is always right, and only follows what it feels is right - and with shaytaan there to beautify our actions, things only become more acceptable to the nafs' owner. And when someone with a different perspective comes along, no-one even considers his words.

Do you see anyone being cocky? We are using Hadith, Quran and resources.

Muin wrote: - If dajjal (who has a Ph.D in deception) is to misguide the Muslims - who would of course be the cream of the crop - how would he do it? There is no doubt that he will try to confuse us, and everyone on this forum knows that. What we need to ask ourselves is: what would be his strategy? If Imam Mahdi is a Veil for Allah, then what happens if we accept the wrong person to be Imam Mahdi?

Simple answer, TV, movies (for the brainwashed West). And non-working scholars (for the "Muslims").

Muin wrote:My intention is not to attack, or argue with anybody - how can a person be an opponent to a people for whom he only wants the best? I'm not trying to show off sincerity to move your hearts, but it's so that you actually give my words some honest thought and reflection. I desire nothing from nobody, and I desire to enter my grave, although I will never ask for it. These are my opinions - based on fact and logic, and we are travellers on the same road, so how can I not lend my fellow travellers a hand?

Like I said, I'm Sunni - but don't let that make you bias toward my words. Take what you understand to be the truth from it and reject what you think to be false. We are all going to be questioned by Allah, and I had to share this so that there is no responsibilty on my shoulders in front of Allah on that day.

I'm not saying I'm right, I could very well be wrong. But it's just something to think about. I'm not attacking or belying Imam Ahmad Al-Hassan, I could be very wrong and we constantly hope and ask for Allah's guidance.

P.S. If you are reading this then Subhanallah, walhamdulillah that your mind is not jelly and that you have the ability to read more than a few lines at a time :)

Wassalamualiakum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu.

No problem I understand, there is no reason for you to suspect this. You just have doubts and they are understandable :).

Fi Amman Allah
User avatar
By Muin
#33300
goamn wrote:Salam,
Muin wrote: - Never can a non-prophet be better than a Prophet [until the end]

This is easy to answer. Muhammad(pbuhahf) says: Ali is from me and I am from Ali. He has also said: I am the City of Knowledge, and Ali is the Door to that City of Knowledge
This simply means Ali(a.s) was very close to the rank of Muhammad(pbuhahf), and because Muhammad was the best of all prophets(a.s), it makes sense that Ali(a.s) is better than all/most of those Prophets(a.s).
Please contemplate on Ali(a.s) and his vast amount of knowledge of religion and Quran and how he is the best person to tell people what to do (halaal and haram) after the death of Muhammad(pbuhahf). In other words, he was the only person appointed by God to rule the Ummah but had this taken away from him unjustly. This you can't walk away from easily.


Wa alaykum salaam. In my opinion, this hadith frankly just does not give Ali R.A a rank higher than that of any prophet. That is, to be very honest, a gross misinterpretation. I'm not taking away anything from the status of Hz Ali, there's no doubt about how high he is - but he is not a prophet. This reply does not validate anyone's claim that Eesa a.s was too weak to handle a test which Allah put him through.

3 more points about this come up:
1. Allah says at the end of surah baqarah that Allah does not burden a soul except with that which it can handle so if Eesa a.s couldnt handle being crucified, then it goes against Allah's law and the Qur'an (WHICH IS IMPOSSIBLE).
2. Also why would Allah choose someone to be His prophet when there is someone better around? All wisdom indicates that Allah chooses THE BEST to be his prophets, so if Imam al-Hassan was around and he could bear more than Eesa a.s why didn't Allah (The Most Wise) choose Imam al-Hassan (in his previous incarnate)?
3. Also would it not be kufr for a Prophet to ask Allah - 'oh my lord why have you abandoned me'? We know it, and every person with strong Imaan knows that Allah NEVER abandons His average slaves - where is Allah going to abandon his Prophets?

I'm not fighting it is still very cordial and relaxed :) :thumbup:

goamn wrote:
Muin wrote: - Every deceiver has been a good talker [until the end]


The deceiver can only go so far without popping up with contracdictions and falsehoods, research is the tool to truth.
[..., for contemplation is the heartbeat of the discerning as walks the enlightened in the darkness
following the light. So get rid well of the falsehood and dwell less on whatever is suspicious (Al-Kafi, vol. 2, p. 599.)]


Very good point you make, I agree.

goamn wrote:
Muin wrote: - The first step is to get people's trust [until the end]

7 takbir is similar to killing yourself? Where is the reason behind this comparison. Reaching the seventh sky with the 7 takbir, as advised by an honest person who calls you to God Almighty and Imam Mahdi(a.s)? Please pick up a fault from Ahmad Al-Hasan, only then can you suggest "tell them to kill themselves". Right now it is without any proof/evidence.


Brother you misunderstood. I did not say he was going to tell anybody to commit suicide. All I was pointing out is that when people have total trust in a person, they need to be extra careful about where they are being led. Where did the 7 takbir come from? Was it found anywhere in Shia Fiqh before? and if not, then is it not a bid'ah...? I cannot find faults in Ahmad al-Hassan, I do not know him, and I will just be guessing. But I am pointing out the confusions which I find in his teaching... And evidence has been provided.

goamn wrote:
Muin wrote: - The nafs are strange, when it learns something secretive [until the end]
...
Do you see anyone being cocky? We are using Hadith, Quran and resources.


There was a reason I put that there - when a human being is told that he is going to do something, then he tends not to do it. Another peculiar aspect about insan. And I just did that so people do not do what people would've done normally.

goamn wrote:
Muin wrote: - If dajjal (who has a Ph.D in deception) is to misguide the Muslims [until the end]
...
Simple answer, TV, movies (for the brainwashed West). And non-working scholars (for the "Muslims").


I should have made myself clearer about this. I meant to imply this: say for example we accept Imam Mahdi as a veil of Allah. And we pledge total obedience to him (Imam Mahdi). And when most people pledge totally, they stop asking questions. Now what if dajjal, while knowing, decieves us into thinking he is Imam Mahdi? And if Dajjal is going to claim to be Allah, why wouldn't Dajjal try, by some miracle, to make us believe he is the Imam and then he says I am a veil of Allah so worship me - what will happen then?

goamn wrote:
Muin wrote:My intention is not to attack, or argue with anybody [until the end]
...
No problem I understand, there is no reason for you to suspect this. You just have doubts and they are understandable :).

Fi Amman Allah


Fi Amaanillah ya akhy
User avatar
By HussainTheShortcomer
#33310
Muin wrote:....

(a)Wa alaykum salaam. In my opinion, this hadith frankly just does not give Ali R.A a rank higher than that of any prophet. That is, to be very honest, a gross misinterpretation. I'm not taking away anything from the status of Hz Ali, there's no doubt about how high he is - but he is not a prophet. This reply does not validate anyone's claim that Eesa a.s was too weak to handle a test which Allah put him through.

3 more points about this come up:
1. Allah says at the end of surah baqarah that Allah does not burden a soul except with that which it can handle so if Eesa a.s couldnt handle being crucified, then it goes against Allah's law and the Qur'an (WHICH IS IMPOSSIBLE).
2. Also why would Allah choose someone to be His prophet when there is someone better around? All wisdom indicates that Allah chooses THE BEST to be his prophets, so if Imam al-Hassan was around and he could bear more than Eesa a.s why didn't Allah (The Most Wise) choose Imam al-Hassan (in his previous incarnate)?
3. Also would it not be kufr for a Prophet to ask Allah - 'oh my lord why have you abandoned me'? We know it, and every person with strong Imaan knows that Allah NEVER abandons His average slaves - where is Allah going to abandon his Prophets?

I'm not fighting it is still very cordial and relaxed :) :thumbup:

Salam,

Nope there is no fighting :). And I really appreciate your patience :).

I labelled the first paragraph "(a)".
[---(a)] On the will of the Prophet (pbutahf) it is clearly narrated that the Imams are his successors (a.s) after him. And he details all 12 of their names. It is a fact, Muhammad and his family (the infalliable Imams) (a.s) are much higher than the Prophets (a.s) before Muhammad.

How can this "Ali is from me and I am from Ali" be a misinterpretation when we learned what it actually means, esoterically. One of the first creations before earth was the Light that taught the angels how to praise Allah(s.w.t). Half of this Light is Muhammad(pbuhahf), and the other half is Ali (a.s). Also what I learnt recently is that the ranks of the Prophets(a.s) are higher than the Angels(a.s). I never would have guessed that. Ali(a.s) was the first to believe in Islam, he was always there in every battle with the Prophet(pbuhahf), his manners and behaviors where identical to the Prophet's(pbuhahf). They were nursed by the same mother and father!! (Abu Talib and Fatimah Bint Asad(a.s)).

It is impossible to refute the rank of Ali(a.s), there is no Hadith or reference that can do so. He walked a path (after the death of Muhammad(pbuhahf) of his own that radiated and can not die down. It showed his superior knowledge of the Quran, he know every single letter and word and all the meanings and proper interpretations. Unlike Muhammad(pbuhahf) though, he didn't have "his veil" removed (I'm sure you know what I'm talking about if your watching latest TADS). And he said even if it were, I would not increase in faith. There are infinite examples that show his high rank of knowledge and closeness to God.

I think you must truly explore the true nature of Ali(a.s) to appreciate who he is. Otherwise, at the very least, you should find things that do not suggest his rank is higher that the Prophets(a.s) before Muhammad(pbuhahf).

[---(1.)]This is a "gross misinterpretation" ... ^.~. What about the time when Moses(a.s) killed a soldier? What about the time when Moses(a.s) asked if his brother Harun(a.s) could join him as he needed help?

It is a matter of a request, from a Prophet to his God, and God would never refuse a Prophets request. Was the Prophet Sulaiman(a.s) not granted the request to talk to all living things including Jinn?

Of course we are not given something unless we can handle it, but handling it could mean asking God for help .... this is a very valid statement.

[---(2)] The best? Of course, among Mankind. But not from among the Ahlulbayt (a.s) :). You must understand they are infallible, they are Hujjatollah(proof and evidence of Allah(s.w.t), there is at least one during any second of this earth). All this time after that eleventh Imam(a.s) we were not left without a Hujjat, it was Imam Mahdi(a.s) that was guiding us in Taqiyya.

[---(3)] The exact saying of those is not clarified fully yet (as of now I believe it is "Oh Ali, oh Ali why have you sent me down?"). But the interpretation still stands, it was a saying meant for the people there at his crucifixion, it is implying "Why did you fail the test and cause me to come down?".

As for the other points you made, they were to do with the validity of Al Yamani(a.s). I think it is much better if you do the research yourself (from his books on the website) rather than me :). Of course, however, there is no problem if you ask about specifics as to his validity, or your doubts toward him. I would be more than happy looking into it for you :).

Fi Amman Allah
User avatar
By Muin
#33352
I appreciate your reply but this is the point in the discussion where things can go no further.

I'm looking at things from a Sunni point of view - i.e. Prophets are highest and then martyrs and so on. We acknowledge the great status of the Ahlul bayt too, but in our opinion the Prophets (a.s) are highest.

This is why I cant counter-argue and it's also why continuing would be of no benefit.

I think the best is to agree to diagree? :)
If I'm right may Allah makes us all right, and if you are right then too may Allah make us all right.
It was nice sharing thoughts, if only all sunni's and shia's could just try to get along, but something else has been decreed.

Fi Amaanillah, akhy fil-islam. :wave:
User avatar
By HussainTheShortcomer
#33354
Muin wrote:I appreciate your reply but this is the point in the discussion where things can go no further.

I'm looking at things from a Sunni point of view - i.e. Prophets are highest and then martyrs and so on. We acknowledge the great status of the Ahlul bayt too, but in our opinion the Prophets (a.s) are highest.

This is why I cant counter-argue and it's also why continuing would be of no benefit.

I think the best is to agree to diagree? :)
If I'm right may Allah makes us all right, and if you are right then too may Allah make us all right.
It was nice sharing thoughts, if only all sunni's and shia's could just try to get along, but something else has been decreed.

Fi Amaanillah, akhy fil-islam. :wave:

Yes we have to agree to disagree :), indeed. It would be nice to unite us, but its like what one of the TADS videos says, "Unity should not be at the cost of truth."

Fi Amman Allah
User avatar
By Zarthushti
#33364
Alhamdullilah,

Thanks to both of you for the question and answers. Muin you have brought up some questions that I also had. Specifically with relation to the place of Ahlulbayt in relation to the Prophets (PBUT).

As an outside observer I would like to say that this is the only part of Ahmed Al-Hasan's message that has raised some doubt within me. Goamn thanks for the replies and the answers, at this stage I agree that the argument is at a bit of a stalemate, but inshallah we shall soon have some answers, I have been asking Allah (SWT) for some guidance on this matter and I have faith that he will guide me rightly.

I also think that once we know the truth of Ahlulbayt's position the question of prayer will then naturally be answered because if Ahlulbayt is higher than the Prophets (PBUT) then it is natural to add ones allegiance to them during salat. I would also like to think that if we are at the end times then it would certainly be time for us to pledge allegiance to Ahlulbayt and one way of doing this is to pray with the addition to the verses. Perhaps this is a test from Allah (SWT) to see if we can overcome our pride and traditions.

037.167 (Y. Ali) And there were those who said,
037.168 "If only we had had before us a Message from those of old,
037.169 "We should certainly have been Servants of God, sincere (and devoted)!"


There are many other verses in the quran that relate this same message: 'we didn't believe because someone came and told us something new that made us uncomfortable and didn't follow the tradition of our fathers'.

5:104 (Y. Ali) When it is said to them: "Come to what Allah hath revealed; come to the Messenger.: They say: "Enough for us are the ways we found our fathers following." what! even though their fathers were void of knowledge and guidance?


I'm not saying that your fathers who are Muslims are void of knowledge, so please don't attack me, I'm just making the point that people do sometimes need to leave their comfort zone in order to find the right path. We cannot just sit on our couches and wait for all the answers to come to us.

With regard to the Prophet Isa (SAW) not being present at his crucifixion; a lot of educated Christians also believe that it was someone else on the cross and not him. In fact at seminary schools priests are taught that there was someone else who was mistaken as Jesus (SAW) and crucified in his place. I know this is not the same as Jesus' (SAW) soul leaving and being replaced but I think that its important that the idea that it wasn't him on the cross is not a new one. The following video is a long one but is from Dr. Jerald Dirk a former Chrisitian Priest who converted to Islam. In this video he talks about what Catholic priests are taught about the crucifixion.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuM-xCBtBSE&playnext=1&list=PL7E9945CD44687FDC[/youtube]

Muin your other points regarding how blind people come when they really want to believe in something is certainly true and it is why we must listen sincerely. We must not believe or reject too quickly, these educated and sincere question and answer sessions with the believers of Imam Ahmed Al-Hassan are important.
User avatar
By Muin
#33482
Zarthushti wrote:Alhamdullilah,

Thanks to both of you for the question and answers. Muin you have brought up some questions that I also had. Specifically with relation to the place of Ahlulbayt in relation to the Prophets (PBUT).

As an outside observer I would like to say that this is the only part of Ahmed Al-Hasan's message that has raised some doubt within me. Goamn thanks for the replies and the answers, at this stage I agree that the argument is at a bit of a stalemate, but inshallah we shall soon have some answers, I have been asking Allah (SWT) for some guidance on this matter and I have faith that he will guide me rightly.
...
Muin your other points regarding how blind people come when they really want to believe in something is certainly true and it is why we must listen sincerely. We must not believe or reject too quickly, these educated and sincere question and answer sessions with the believers of Imam Ahmed Al-Hassan are important.


No harm done, and no offence taken. I'm glad that I'm not being misunderstood in my intentions. Indeed if we put our total trust and suubmission in Allah He will never let us go wrong, that's the promise of Allah. May Allahu guide us all, Ameen.

Thanks for posting that link, I was aware that many people believe Eesa a.s wasn't crucified; many people claim that it was Judas Iscariot - a disciple of Eesa a.s. Allahu A'lam, but my confusion was where it was made to seem as if Eesa a.s was weak, impatient and unable to withstand the test of Allah. It seemed to sort of belittle the status afforded to Eesa a.s, that was where my doubts got raised. So I thought I'd ask, I'm sure there has got to be a reasonable and clear answer - and if you don't ask you'll never find out.

Ma'as Salaam :)
User avatar
By Muin
#33483
... I forgot to add that I also became a bit suspicious when people started being 'enlightened' on new ways to perform salaah and give azaan, etc. How wrong was the way it was being done for hundreds of years that now it is one of the first things to be changed?

It doesn't really affect me at all, because I'm Sunni, but I have to say that if someone from the Sunni's make a claim to be Imam Mahdi or anyone related, and then they start altering the fundamentals of our ibadat - I would become REALLY suspicious...
User avatar
By Muin
#34055
It's been days and still no-one has been able to answer or counter my arguments... Very very strange
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